What Was the Difference Between the Magic Performed by Moses and the Pharaoh’s Sorcerors?

Perhaps someone could tell me what category we would place the magic/ sorcery (practiced by Moses and supported by the �biblical god�) when he tried to convince the Pharaoh to release the Israelites from slavery? As stated before, Moses was in competition with the Pharaoh�s sorcerers.

Please, for all those on this blog, who have condemned sorcery � can you answer this question.

Asked by Pat

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19 Comments
  1. Pat,

    It’s my interpretaion of it, sure, but here’s what I read:
    God empowered Moses through Moses’ trust and faith that God would help His believers out of slavery. Only God did that “through” Moses. It was to end their suffering at the hand of the Egyptians. To me, and most Christians, I think… Moses wasn’t a warlock. What the magicians did were mere tricks. What God did was Divine in nature. It was a miracle. Not magic of Moses, I think.

    I condemn no religion, as that is not my judgement to make, with one exception… anything that glorifies Satan. Voodoo does. They readily admit they get the devil to do ‘thier bidding’ through Christ. Christ doesn’t work that way. Never did.

    I’ve come to understand through reading history of the nature of the Middle Eastern cultures in the OT this last week, from the advice of a minister who is my father, as I had the same concerns. They were barbaric in their nature, much like the warlords who currently rule different tribes and areas there now. God dealt with them in the only way they understood: FEAR. Eventually, when they started to become more ‘civilized’ he began to lay off a bit. The last writings of the OT were 400 years before the NT. There was a huge change in culture in Isreal in those 400 years, as historical Hewbrew written records that are not in the bible tell of.

    It was only after this ‘revolution’ that He decided it was time for them to understand mercy and His grace, because even with the changes in society, they just weren’t getting it straight. The Isrealites took Gods words and made their own micro-management laws to supplement them, which made it impossible for anyone to know what God was really about. There were so, so, so many tiny sins that God never said anything about that the pharacies and sagicies (sp?) imposed upon their society – like our own government is doing today. Amazing history!! Reminded me of our own societies changes of the last 400 years…and we still don’t get it either. :(

    Keith

    • Hi Keith J,

      :-) How does one turn water in the Nile river into blood, change a staff into a serpent, plague the land and people’s homes with frogs when one makes verbal incantations, these were spells cast by both the Pharaohs sorcerers and Moses, except the biblical god’s knowledge and magical powers were far greater than those of the Pharaohs sorcerers. Keith, these were not tricks by the sorcerers, they were indeed spells cast.

      This brings me to one of the prime reasons the biblical Lord/god was so angry with the ‘sons of god’ who took upon themselves earthly wives. Not only did they, according to the bible, have intercourse with the humans, they also imparted secret knowledge to the humans, this secret knowledge included sorcery which they demonstrated and taught to the humans.

      One need not elaborate on this fact as it speaks for itself. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

  2. I�ll try to find the history of that period and before and give you the links. Some anthropological site. Pretty neat stuff that explains a lot to me. A I must admit, makes me much more comfortable about the Old Testament�

    • Hi Keith

      If one read ‘The Complete Books of Enoch‘, one is able to gauge the frustration the biblical Lord/god experienced when dealing with his chosen people and the other tribes, so I’m fully aware of the fickle nature of the ‘chosen people’ and the barberic behaviour of their neighbouring cousins.

  3. This question was actually posted in the comments on another question and I moved it here to its own page.

    I have often wondered and talked with others about this same question. Many years ago I asked an older family member who was a regular ‘church goer’ about this and she told me that the Egyptian sorcerers performed these miracles with the power of Satan. I thought that was a really strange answer because she also said (at a different time) that Satan had no power and could only deceive and trick. But that doesn’t make sense o me. Going by her answer would mean that Satan has the same powers to perform “miracles”. Now of course there are scriptures that describe the antichrist doing miracles and making the people wonder and awe.

    I read once that when one of the Knights Templar was asked how they had been able to do such amazing feats with architecture they replied with something about secret words and mysteries they had gotten from the Egyptians.

    • Hi guys,

      If we remove the ascribed meaning of the word ‘miracle’ .. and call it ‘manipulating energy’ .. we can all do it to various degrees. Was Moses the only one doing magic .. gifted by God, or otherwise; were the priests the only ones .. or was it someone’s wonderful imagination having a very good time many centuries later? We do not know.

      God manipulated energy to create everything we know and are learning about. Satan manipulates energy too, and can use it to make all sorts of things happen, usually nasty. Making the assumption that Satan did the bad stuff and God did the good stuff, defies the teachings in the OT. Please remember that ‘God’ sent an evil angel to torment Saul .. the angel is not named .. but it might have been Satan. Given that Job then suffered the same thing, its entirely possible, IMO, if God (aka Jehovah), is also capable of being a nasty piece of work.

      Having said that, I’ve forgotten the question .. brief pause while rereading site .. :-)

      Ah! The complete books of Enoch, Pat .. he didn’t actually write them. Enoch is mentioned in Genesis. It seems the book of Watchers was created about 300BCE and the Parables about 100BC. 2 Enoch in the first century CE, 3 Enoch in the 5th. As a source of what God is, or was, feeling, they are not very good. You have three different authors with their own interpretations to share.

      Turning water red .. has happened in modern times, via a little plankton or microbe that went slightly nuts in the breeding program. It must have been a really good season, because suddenly the frog population went nuts too. And then there were locusts .. I don’t call them a miracle, but we have had swarms of them here in Oz only last year, and this one before the floods (more bible stories to be invented from half of the east coast of Australia being under water last year :-) ). And then there were the mice plagues (oh where is Daniel to interpret those nightmares?). LOL It all has natural explanations. And so does fish falling out of the sky, and the red sea parting (volcanic eruptions and tidal waves?)

      Staff to snake .. magic or magic mushrooms (what was that manna stuff they were eating?), or imagination, the imagery has touched the hearts of billions, to bring them to God or to shake their head in puzzlement. Facts, over the millenium, become myths .. because people find some things hard to believe, but look around. Life is not so different now.

      Love & Peace
      Ama

      • I think if one wishes to change the wording and call sorcery – the ‘manipulation of energy’, that’s quite fine with me, as it still means those feats were mind boggling and spectacular. Ama, do you know of any living energy manipulator presently alive who could entertain us thus? :-)

        • Not by changing a staff into a snake, Pat, but yes, I know any number of people who can ‘change’ things – like people’s minds, or manipulate energy to make profound changes in other people’s energy, bringing them peace and healing, which is more important than dazzling a person’s eyes with pretty games. I believe David Copperfield and other magicians are very good at magic tricks, and we are discussing mythology here. There are no ‘facts’ to Moses existence, only the bible. What was supposed to have happened between Moses and the priests, or the Pharoah is also not recorded in Egyptian history.

          Let me tell you of one of the life changing events in my life.

          A man came to see me for a reading and the first thing he asked was ‘if he killed someone would he get caught and go to prison for it’. The answer was yes. I asked him who and why, and he told me. He was poisonous in his anger and I was actually frightened for myself in that moment. So I made a conscious decision, then and there, to do something I had never done before. I had to make him change his mind. The ‘half an hour’ reading lasted 2 hours – time he nevered noticed passing. We ‘talked’. I can’t explain to you the energy shifts that happened in that time, how I was ‘led’ by my angels (bless them) to ‘right’ words, the right thoughts, to be told to nudge energy this way or that .. to deliberately choose to push and pull his state of mind. At the end I was totally exhausted but him .. he had come in so angry, so ready to kill .. he walked out smiling.

          As he was leaving I asked him why he had come to see me. It was a foolish question on my part, but I had to know .. he said “I don’t remember, but it was a great reading, thank you”, and then he was gone – in a hurry now, having realised the time.

          It sounds nothing written like that, but it was an enormous lesson for me. And I saw him around town, in later years, and each time he was smiling, but he did not recognise me. I hope he’s having a very happy life.

          I don’t need to change a staff into a snake to prove the magic in the world. I just have to remember all my life experiences.

          Love & Peace
          Ama

  4. :-):-) Hi Ama,

    Moses and the Israelites were only fed with ‘that manna stuff’ :-)
    after their release and while they were on the long and winding route to the Promised Land. So the possible effects of magic mushrooms wasn’t in play during the magicians competition.

    I can also create RED WATER by throwing red dye in the water, BUT I certainly cannot change the Nile water into BLOOD.

    It would be fantastic to be able to part the water ‘INSTANTLY’ with a magic staff and incantations in the English Channell so I could cross to France by car rather than having to board one of those precarious ferries.

    As for the infestations of frogs and locusts, well I would consider it miraculous or mind boggling if you threatened me thus and clicked your fingers and I found I was instantly plagued by these creatures.

    And that goes for all the other magical deeds in those threats and competition.

    Ama, if this biblical story is true, there was no other explanation but sorcery by both participants. And it’s evident, this knowledge and practice of sorcery was known to and part and parcel of the secret knowledge which should have been kept amongst the sons of the gods and the Lord/god.

    Why is that, if what we consider to be unpleasant is always the work of Satan, yet if we are to be straight and honest, we know the biblical Lord/god behaved in a shocking manner when dealing with mankind and that’s a fact.

    • Hi Pat,

      I agree the nile into blood would be outrageous .. but the red plankton?? stuff does make it look thick and viscous. And you would think, if it really happened, the Egyptians would have made some note of it in their history. And how do we know it all happened instantly .. when the story is only in the bible. (But then we have the instant rain of fish over england many years ago – though I don’t remember if anyone mentioned clicking fingers – which have natural explanations. LOL) I know .. some people believe the bible to be true, but belief in an event over 4000 years ago .. stories change over time, and they get exaggerated, and those stories were not written down for hundreds of years from their creation … we really should take that into account.

      You don’t take the Chunnel? I must admit I would rather not be underground myself. :-)

      Why do people have to have a villain – because they refuse to accept responsibility for their own actions. ‘Someone’ has to have ‘made them do it’. “It’s your fault I’m this angry.” No, its not. The person is choosing to be angry, they can make another choice. It’s up to them. I remind myself of this every time I lose my temper.

      Does Satan really exist, or did humanity create it to separate the dark nature of God from the Light. Going by my lifetime of experience, I know the dark exists as a conscious being .. I even believe what I ‘know’ of its creation.

      You will have gathered that I believe magic is real – well, if you’ve read any of the sites where I’ve made that comment. I don’t doubt that Moses (if he existed, and we have no proof he did) changed his staff, or that the priests did, I just don’t think God was helping one side and not the other. Magic is not the work of the devil, magic is a creation tool .. we are creators. When we grow up (spiritually), perhaps ‘God’ will allow us the gift of ‘instant manifestation’ back again. So many people are trying to create it now.

      Sourcery, to me, is a very negative word. It is used to describe people who worked very dark magic. Now that might not be true, but it appears to be how most people seem to view it these days, going by my reading. I don’t think it was taught, or provided by any fallen angels, or ancient astronauts. Humanity already had the gift, or they would not have been able to use it, lessons or not.

      We can’t call what God did or didn’t do a ‘fact’ because we don’t have anything to substantiate what is written in the bible about the magic, or ‘his’ behaviour. I agree the OT ‘god’ was appalling, but as AJ reminded us just recently, it could simply be the writers’ interpretations of events.

      One thing that does appear to be true .. God hasn’t interfered in humanity since Jesus came, or even before. We have free will. If we didn’t, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

      And its a great discussion, thank you Pat. :-)

      Love & Peace
      Ama

      • Hi Ama

        I appreciate your view-point, however, we must agree to differ on our individual biblical interpretations. :-)

        On the question of Enoch – further up the discussion, we would be talking at cross purposes as I gather you are not particularly impressed by the writings of the Christian bible. Be-that-as-it-may, Enoch apparently was a favourite of the biblical Lord/god having walked with him much of the time. One assumes they hobnobbed together quite a lot (what does that say about this Lord/god – very human – me thinks), and according to the bible Enoch was so favoured, he was taken to ‘heaven’ bodily and shown wonderous things and during his 40 days(??) on his first visit, he took down prophetic dictations which had to be dispersed among mankind on his return.

        For some reason best known to those who collated and compiled the books of the bible, the book/s of Enoch were excluded. One begins to be curious as certain biblical works mention Enoch’s close association with the Lord/god and his trip to the skies with his mate, yet his written accounts of his experiences ‘up there’ is excluded. Why?? Surely, those experiences as far as I’m concerned, should have been lapped up – absolute gold data for all of us down here on Earth.

        The accounts of Enoch’s experiences were most definitely written down but obviously the data was unpopular with the biblical collators. Why?? So being a curious individual, I acquired the published Books of Enoch and believe some of the contents – at least, would enlighten me.

        • This has inspired a new question – Who Was Enoch and Why Was the Book of Enoch Excluded from the Bible? //www.trueghosttales.com/questionsandanswers/who-was-enoch-and-why-was-the-book-of-enoch-excluded-from-the-bible/

        • Hi Pat,

          You are right, the early Christians really were not interested in all of enoch’s stuff on fall angels, watchers, grigori and other beings that the books are full of. They wanted information on God, not other entities, so its logical to leave the various books of Enoch out of the bible .. and then the sources were not really reliable, not that I suppose that mattered too much, given the other things they included .. but my thought has to be .. how would Enoch of benefited their teachings? I can understand how Job would, but not Enoch. They were ordinary people living in a time of crisis. Maybe they just simply wanted to keep it simple? We can’t know their minds, we were probably ‘not’ them.

          Love & Peace
          Ama

      • Well Ama,

        I think many of the books on history (bible being one), will have to be relegated to the trash can as far as you are concerned because they don’t concur with your beliefs. :-(

        • Not the trash, Pat, put back into the mythology category .. ‘fascinating, possibly true’, but .. and not just by me, but by millions of other people who question them too.

          I believe in fallen angels. I have spoken to some of them, on both sides of the Light and Dark. I even wrote a book about them. But I don’t expect people to accept the book as the ‘unerring word of … Ama’ ? LOL

          Love & Peace
          Ama

  5. What I think is very simple.It was all about politics and control and anything that went against religious dogma in any way at all was called evil because that is the best way to keep the sheeple in line especially if they have a God who punishes.If you read the Middle Eastern News called Emirates 24/7 you will be surprised at how the Saudi government eggs on their practice of fearing evil Jinns and evil spells their enemies place on them and this causes extreme fear so much that the Saudi people are being bilked out of thousands of dollars by the so called sorcerers from the African countries who come their to work and then exploit this fear and who claim they can do spiritual cleanings for them.But I think the Govt.’s role in this helps instill control by the people needing the church,It is just like the early Americans who were called terrorists until they won the war,then they were heroes and their belief’s became law.I think all belief’s can be exploited real and imagined ones’.

  6. This may have already been answered and of course from what I have read the answer is based in your belief and faith. Yaweh God is infinite and almighty and sovereign. If one knows this and God has made it clear through a daily relation with Him through Christ Jesus it is fairly simple to understand that God does give satan some control within our earthly realm but he has limited control. God is always in control. He allowed this demonstration not only for the people standing around at the time, not only for the Jews, but for us and everyone in between. If yo are a student of the Bible you know the type of teaching and discipline God employed upon His chosen people. My interpretation and what I have learned through study is this was a demonstration to all that there is evil in this world, then and now, same source that does have power to lead people astray from a relationship with God. God was not putting curses on anything or anyone at this time, He already knoew what powers the magicians would have because He allowed satan and/or his minions present at the time to accomplish this magic in order to make His point to all present, the Jews of that time, and us now. That yes there is evil in the world that does have the power to deceive people but ultimately He is in control and His power created all and that satan only has the ability to do what God allows him to do. Satan came to earth and the aurrounded atmoshere for only 3 reasons to kill, steal, and destroy and that mission is the same today as it was in the beginning. He is always under God’s thumb but he also knows that God will not use His power to infringe on our free will. We still have to make the choice to serve God or serve the world. God will not make that decision for us and all the efforts of satan are to deceive people into thinking that no choice has to be made. In reality that choice is made by all of us whether we realize it or not. If you choose to ignore the choice you are rejecting God. Yes the magicians were using soucery powered from satan but limited and used for God’s purposes. Moses was an instrument that God used to perform real miracle the witchcrat was only a feeble attempt to match God’s sovereign power and in every case it was not even comparable. God created al and controls all including satan. I would not strain at a ngnat here trying to make anything other than what God wanted it to be.

    • About magic: since the source is God, or we think it is .. when Moses uses it .. and the source is Satan, or we think it is, when the men who defied Moses were using it … where did Satan get the magic from to give to the men?

      JK, didn’t you just say God gave Satan the magic to give to ‘its’ followers? Sorry, just trying to understand this sentence “Yes the magicians were using soucery powered from satan but limited and used for God�s purposes”. Limited by whom for whom? Is God then a monster that it gives the gift of magic to all people .. and let’s them do what they want with it? Or does God expect us all to act for the greater good? And what is the greater good, when two people(s) are in argument with each other over some land that ‘God’ says belongs to the Israelites .. but the other guys have had it for .. what .. thousands of years? And aren’t we just reliving the whole thing now with territorial disputes like Israel (and other countries) wanting more land and not caring how they take it, or who they take it from?

      God help us, Satan must be laughing its head off. :-(
      Love & Peace
      Ama

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