Why Such Differences in the Way God is Presented in the Old Testament and the New?

In another question, What is Salvation all About and is it Necessary?, the discussion turned toward the question about the differences in the way God is presented in the Old and New testaments.

In the Old testament God is presented as being jealous and vengeful. God ordered the slaughter of thousands and thousands of people.

In the New Testament God is described as long suffering and gentle and patient. God loves all of us. In fact he loves us so much that he “sent his only begotten son…”

So why do you think there is such a dramatic difference between the way God is described in the two parts of the Bible?

Asked by CareTaker

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75 Comments
  1. Hi CT

    It all boils down to three things:

    1. human interpretation of God
    2. power a person/s can obtain through fear of the unknown.
    3. the way folks thought lived and what was deemed acceptable behaviour at the time. (One would hope we’ve evolved – as humans – in 6000 years.)

    Thing is, a lot of things in the OT – ie sacrifices – are also connected to pagan ritual. Just because someone gives God a different name, does not necessarily mean its a different God. Its the perception of God that has changed, not the nature of God.

    AJ
    x

    • Right – and it is the perception of God that I am referring to with the question. That is the “way god is presented” and I am sure we can all agree that God was presented much differently in the OT as in the NT

      • Yep! Just as it was perfectly ok to burn witches in the 1600′s or it was considered fine to electricute or hang criminals in the UK intil 1960′s.

        Now, with the exeption of a few states in America, the general ‘civilized world’ perseption of capital punishment is considered barbaric.

        Strange how perception changes …

        AJ
        x

  2. Hi CT

    “God ordered the slaughter of thousands and thousands of people.”

    But how can anyone (even Moses) be certain it was actually God who gave that order?? It is the angels who are the messengers of God. Gods words are spoken to us, through them. God would not have spoken directly to Moses or anyone else, otherwise, why have messenger angels at all??

    Although I believe Moses spoke to Holy Angels at certain points in the story ( ie in order to help get the Israelites out of Egypt), I also think something darker twisted things around at certain other times – especially during moments when Moses was a bit miffed at the way the Israelites were carrying on. Negative feeds negative after all.

    AJ
    x

    • Yep but I am not talking about an actual God I am only talking about the different ways he wwas/is presented and described comparing the OT with the NT

      When I was growing up (in a traditional Pentecostal home) I never once heard anyone mention or bring to attention the strange differences. It was only later afeer I had read and studied the Bible that I saw how striking the differences were.

      • It almost looks like a completely different being/deity/personage is being talked about. Does the God who tortured (hiring a hitman is the same as murder) Job and instructed his followers to brutally murder 3000 of their own friends and family, etc and so on sound like the same one who “sent his only begotten son…” and was patient and loving and wanted us to turn the other cheek (yes those were Jesus’ words but he got his WORD from the Father)?

        I will tell you what it brings to my mind… Just thinking out loud here… It is very reminiscent of the Annunaki the ancient Sumerians described. There were two brothers Enki and Enlil and they were different. One had grown to love the ‘humans’ the other did not and the two came to a war over it. (very simplified but as I said I am just thinking aloud)

        • Hi Caretaker,

          :-) We are most definitely singing from the same page, the biblical god who allocated Earthly colonised land to relatives, their offspring and their subjects, jealously guarded their property and in some cases egged the chosen inhabitants on to grab land which was occupied by those who posed a threat. This smacks of greedy beings who treasure material things and, we inherited their genes that’s the reason why we are so territorial and materialistic. Quite frankly, they (the gods) created chaos among the people, akin to present day colonisation with the colonisers having the upper hand. But as history unfolds, the tables are always turned later on, and seeing their folly from above (their space chariots), they tried to reverse the trend by artificially inseminating a virgin human female with the sperm of (I suspect the Lord Enki) the boy child, resulting from this very common and ancient practice of artificial insemination amongst themselves many thousands of years ago when mankind was first created in their image. They also had the technology and ability to bring the dead back to life – hence the ‘resurrection’ of the son of god.

          I think, to a degree, the volte-face has indeed made a difference to us as human beings. Lord Enki was more tolerant/gentle with the humans than his half brother Enlil, who seemed to be quite brutal and didn’t give a jot about human lives, I suspect he regarded human beings as verman which could be dispensed with at will. Perhaps, their father in ‘heaven’ gave Lord Enlil another role elsewhere on another cooler planet. That would explain the differences between the ‘god – Lord’ of the Old and New Testaments. Enki is Lord of Earth now, whilst Enlil could even have been banished to another planet because of his indifference to mankind.

  3. Morning guys,

    How many gods in the Bible? Two very distinct ones.

    I agree with AJ in saying that it might be down to the writer’s of the stories to show us their opinions and interpretations of God. Problem is, for me, that there are such huge difference in behaviour. If it was the same God OT and NT, I would think it would act the same, given the amount of disrespect people have for God these days, we should all be in hell – but thankfully no one seems to be smited anymore. If it is the same God, then God changed, not us, really we are basically exactly the same as we were, frightened animals struggling for spiritual awareness – poke pretty much anyone very hard and we are all capable of murder and other protective measures. I know this of myself. Don’t touch my kids! I can’t guarantee what I would do to someone who hurt someone I love. I admire the lady in Oz who forgave her daughter’s murderer, I would like to think I could do that too, but I am not sure.

    So, we have Jehovah, the God of war, who tormented anyone who disobeyed, and also Job, if we take the bible literally .. Job, his ‘blameless and upright’ true believer, who kept his faith in the face of horrendous loss and pain. Would Jesus’ God have done that to anyone? EL was the one that told Jesus to tell us ‘love one another as I love you’. Now if the NT god is Jehovah, we are doing just fine, the world is full of small-minded, nasty, people who love others until they do something they don’t like and then they take it away again, or simply hate everyone and become tormentors .. but many people understand that is really ‘not’ what we are supposed to do. We are taught (NT) that Love (faith, hope, charity, forgiveness, compassion) is the key to so much change for the good. That doesn’t come from Jehovah. There’s no ‘hope’ with Jehovah. You know if you get it ‘wrong’ with him you are in deep trouble. Jehovah teaches us not to trust anyone, most particurly God himself. Don’t turn your back on God, don’t look in its ‘face’ or you will die .. why? Because you might see that ‘god’ isn’t God, because our chief fallen angel, known to some as the devil or Satan, named Samael, is the most beautiful being anyone will ever see, but you still know the thing is as nasty as hell. Another lesson from ‘God/EL’, don’t judge by appearances? Learn discernment, question every entity for your own safety. Oh dear.

    So the smiting stopped. It stopped, it seems, from what I can research, before Jesus came .. so when did one God take on the other god and say .. give back my children .. and won. Those trapped in Sheol were freed. That’s in the bible, thank you Jesus. But, the war in heaven seems ever present, given we have Revelation, and from my own metaphysical experiences. I side with the Light. Having free will we all have the right to choose. Thank you God.

    Thoughts before breakfast,
    Love & Peace
    Ama

    • I really think the God of the OT was not God at all. I’m not even sure there was an entity working thought I flip flop on the thought…What if it was all about political power and persuasion? You have to admit, the God of the OT would have been pretty damn persuasive!

      • Not persuasive, Robyn, terrifying! Hence the blood sacrifices to appease it.

        The ‘god’ of the OT is the devil, IMO, if you go by behaviour. Why would a God that says ‘love one another as I have loved you’ demand its followers murder whole tribes or kill members of their own families. Why would it send ‘evil angels’ to torment people, or kill the first born sons of a people that didn’t worship it? And then there’s Job .. no, that’s not Jesus’ God.

        Love & Peace
        Ama

        • No, it wasn’t the same God that Jesus spoke of – in fact, the opposite. And the opposite of God would be purely evil. Scary thought, isn’t it.

          And look at how generations after have suffered because of these things. Would Hitler have viewed the Jews differently? Perhaps so…scary business!

          • If some people didn’t view the Jews as having killed ‘God’, perhaps the Jewish people would not have suffered as much as they have. Jesus said ‘Father, forgive them, they know not what they do’. If he could forgive them, why can’t other people? As for Hitler, the Jews had the money, and still do, in most societies. Would he have treated them any differently when he still wanted what they had? Or would he not exist at all? We can only wonder about how much the world would be different if our founding ‘fathers’ of the Christian religion had practised what Jesus preached – Love one another as I have loved you. Obviously we have history to prove that they didn’t. Is that our punishment unto the 700th generation?

            There’s an interesting thought. Hmm.. it seems 20 years is a generation, although when I studied Anthropology we measured it between 3 to 5 years. Going by what’s on the net, and allowing 20 years its only been a bit over 100 generations since Jesus died. And 62 since Adam .. hmm.. I don’t think the second coming is due anytime soon. God promised to punish Israel to the 700th generation, and we know he keeps his promises. LOL

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • Perhaps it is our punishment in that sense.

            I personally practice forgiveness for selfish reasons. Hate is not in my heart. This concept seems foreign to so many and when I say it they think I’m mad. On the contrary, it’s how I keep myself sane because harboring hate and a need for revenge harms me above all other things. It’s always made perfect sense to me anyway! lol

            As far as the end being near, I’m not concerned. If it is, it is. And if not, well we go on living as we do now – hopefully we become more and more enlightened as we go!

          • Makes perfect sense to me too!

            I tell people to practise forgiveness because it helps ‘them’, as well as the person they are forgiving. The ones who refuse .. quite truthfully, I pray for them. They condemn themselves while continuing to condemn others. That is NOT what Jesus taught, and even if they don’t believe in Jesus .. anger destroys us from the inside without touching the person we are angry at. What’s the point of remaining angry when the only person hurting is yourself?

            Love & Peace
            Ama

  4. Very great points have been raised and I love the discussion being had…and love the respectful way in which it’s being done! Only in speaking (or typing!) like this can any questions really be answered or even objectively looked at.

    Before Jesus, we have the OT. People of that time seemed to want to appease the Gods in a very old-world Pagan way (or at least how The Bible depicts Pagans). That was done via sacrifice generally. In fact, Jesus himself made many animal sacrifices when he was a child as it was customary to do so within the Jewish faith. We’ve previously discussed how Moses would have also been accustomed to appeasing the Gods in this manner.

    Once we get to The New Testament, we see a complete change over. But is it because God has changed? Or is it that Jesus sees a better way? After all, many people confuse Jesus and God and think somehow they are the same spirit. Personally, I do not believe they were the same and if we’re being honest the belief or worship as if they are the same immediately breaks the first commandment.

    I think the difference we see is not the difference in God, it’s the changing of time and ideas. Jesus brought a better way. Gods always been loving…and just like now, people have always managed to pervert and twist what God is and is not for their own advantages.

  5. In the old testament, it seems that Moses, Job and other believers in those times spoke directly to God. After that it seems that God stopped communicating direct to the people and sent Jesus Christ into the world as a sacrifice for all the sins committed. That is the beginning of the New Testament. In it Jesus performed many miracles through the power of God. God spoke through Jesus. He was God in human form. Those are my personal beliefs. The New Testament is called new because it depicts the life of Christ and his teachings.

    • I cannot grasp the concept of Jesus being God in human form. While God may have spoke through Jesus and guided him, I have to ask who would Jesus pray to? He was not praying to himself in the garden or the desert. He was praying to God…God would not pray to himself.

      If you believe any of the Gnostic writings are credible, Jesus could not have been God in the flesh as he is not perfect…I do NOT say such to take away from his greatness, I am rather putting the possibilities out there.

      • Hi Robyn,

        How about Jesus channelling the Holy Spirit aka the Christ energy? In the bible it says that the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus at his baptism and he began his ministry from that day. That was a profound change. He became ‘the Christ’, or was ‘christed’ (crowned) by God.

        I agree in thinking that Jesus saw God as a being outside himself, its written so clearly, but people do love to take the teaching and reinterpret them … me included. LOL

        Love & Peace
        Ama

        • Perhaps the idea that intercession is necessary makes people view Jesus as God, but in my opinion it makes Jesus deity and well, isn’t that a problem within itself? lol

          • Well, if Jesus was the diety its not problem at all, but going by his own words .. or the conflict between them. (paraphrased) “God and I are one” John 14:7-10

            And then there is ‘Father, into your hands I commend my spirit’ .. as if he was separated from God already, that he felt he had to hand himself over? Luke 23:46 While would he feel that way if he was ‘God’?

            If we take out the need for Jesus as intercessor, Robyn, the Christian faith falls on its face. Jesus is the core of the religion, not God. It is Jesus teachings, although they might come direct from God, that lead people .. until Paul takes over (grumble LOL).

            Makes a person wonder ..

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • God and Jesus – seperate for certain.

            Intercession necessary? No. However,For the Christian faith as it has become to continue, yes.

            And this is the bit that throws me for a loop – Jesus being the core of Christianity and not God. I’m not arguing it’s a bad thing – just a thing I have a hard time understanding. My little brain can only wrap so far around the idea…lol

          • I don’t think Jesus wanted to be the ‘core’ of the faith, Robyn. People just made him that. He taught we are supposed to focus on God, but we can’t touch God, and people could touch Jesus.

            Love & Peace
            Ama

        • Actually Robyn,

          If you read up on the earlier activities of the R.Catholic church, you’ll find after much discussions, ‘humming and harring’ between the hierarchy, they eventually decided to declare Jesus Christ to be the son of God and as such God in the flesh. The church decided to elivate the status of Christ particularly at a time when it had rigid control of its subjects, in that way they were able to increase their authority as representatives of God. I don’t think they ever envisaged a time in future history when mankind would publically question their utterances.

  6. Jesus was/still is the New Covenant (or “Promise”), and the last one, between God and man. The ways of God in the Old Testament – or should I say “ways of Man” – angered God, for the people refused to listen. Do you get upset at your children when the refuse to listen? God did punish, but when He saw that Nothing worked, in effect He said “I love my children So very much, but they just don’t ‘get it!’ One last try. Different approach this time. I will show mercy through my own Son’s pure sacrifice, so the refusers no longer sacrifice in vain when they believe it not. My children will no longer warp my house rules into impossible human law. This is it.” He was so tired of never getting results. Jesus is The Good News. He’s our last chance, through love, peace, forgiveness, God’s mercy. This is our God’s true nature, I believe. This IS the final covenant. And it is a sure thing if you can just believe for a second and see the change. Open the mind, allow yourself the chance to find out. Then make you choice. It is yours to make. :)

    • Hi Keith,

      I love this biblical stuff but it always leads to questions. I would be interested to know your opinion on my thoughts.

      When did Job refused to listen to God? What didn’t he hear before Jehovah gave Satan permission to kill his family, servants, livestock etc. This is a story I rant about, because it shows the OT god to be treacherous and pompous, a being that will not accept responsibility for its cruel actions to one of its own TRUE believers.

      If the ‘god’ of the OT and the god of the NT are the same, why did the OT god have little patience with his humans .. while the God of the NT shows infinite patience with all of us. Are we less evil than them? Our vices appear to be far more sophisticated? Certainly our weapons are far more deadly, and our populations, of non-believers, are far higher. The OT god ran people into the ground. Killing them would have been too kind – back to Job, who begged for death. The OT god used psychological torment on him, and on Abraham and Saul etc .. what made him change his mind to such an extent that he doesn’t harm anyone now, or interfere in our lives in any way. I know people say ‘God saved me’ but we have no facts, only opinions, about that. The angels will act for God, on occasion, but its so infrequent as to be noted. Could it be that the NT God honours his gift of free will to each of us? The free will we surrendered to the dark when we chose to fall (the allegory of Adam & Eve). The NT god promised to punish Israel for 700 generations, but they seem to be doing just fine, one way or another, financially anyway, and they, for the most part, are more connected to the OT than the NT, so why isn’t he punishing them in the very obvious ways he used to in prehistory?

      For me Jesus was the key in the door of humanity’s prison. His sacrfice broke sin’s (satan’s) grasp on all of us. He gave back to us that which the first god had taken away. And what is a god anyway? A being far more superior to humanity, or one simply good at tricks that impress more immature minds. We call them magicians now.

      Don’t get me wrong, I am a true believe in the Creator and the energy of the Christ, through Jesus, but the OT ‘god’ is no god. It shows its true nature through its cruelty, just as Jesus showed us God’s true nature through his acts of love, kindness and sacrifice, and God’s lack of interference when we killed his Son. If Jesus had been the son of the OT god, going by his track record, the ‘god’ would probably have struck everyone dead, or insane.

      Love & Peace
      Ama

      • Ama,
        I had forgotten the last part od what Pop said when we spoke about God in the OT. I’ve done my own research on it before posting. Took awhile!

        In addition to the barbaric way the tribes lived, requiring a firm hand from God;

        The lineaage of King David had to be preserved in order for his descendent, Jesus, Messiah, to come (although we know the Jews do not believe He was). Jesus WAS indeed of that lineage. And he came in the right timeframe for that coming. BUT… and this is the BIG but, the bible said the final coming will be in before the sixth mellinium. Not on the currenent Georgian Christian calendar, but of the Hebrew calendar…which is somewhere around 5700, I’m not sure exactly. It’s on internet.

        So, Step one: God served the line of David with swift and hard punishment upon thier attackers…. when they asked and follow God’s advice. That wasn’t very often, hence the punishment…including the tyrant Kind Herod, who was NOT of David, the mean b#####d!

        Step Two: The Isrealite would lose their homeland for hundred of years. Already happened.

        Step Three: Thanks to Britain and the U.S., after their almost perfect genocide in WWII, re-established their Homeland, much to the dismay of the Palestinians. And yep, we still protect them with everything we’ve got, because even as christians, we understand their 6000 year to be our Rapture. Makes sense, but Government will never put it that way. The say it is for their strategic location. Bull, I say!

        Step Three:
        When the Messiah comes their will be peace on earth, and accordingly to NT we christians will be taken to heaven, or nons sent to hell, and the Jews will have to endure still they recognize the Messiah for what He was.

        Dad spoke to the cruelity, but he only mentioned the Line of David at the end of our hour-long conversation. I guess he thought I remembered that from Sunday school! lol

        So, there ya have it. As i stated before, I’m ok with all that. More so even now :)

        Love Keith

        • oops, had 2 step 3′s! Between the first stp 3 and the second one, which is actually step 4 there is, uh… step3.5! LOL I forgot; the line of David will once again be established, ushering in the Messiah.

          The Jews are and always have been obsessed with lineage of all 7 tribe. The lost 3 tribes leave a lot in uncertainty though, which is a huge issue for those who can find theirs, as that does not bode well for their future necessarlly.

          Sorry for the ‘leave out’ part, but I hope this further explains the violence of God. God hated it too, according to scriptures in many places. He was sad so often that His Chosen People (which are actually only Davids Line I believe – JMO.

          Always, Your brother in Christ,
          Keith

          • The line of David doesn’t need re-establishing .. don’t forget Joseph had other sons, and hopefully they had kids. I believe the Israelites married early. When I grew up I was taught, in church, that Jesus was an only child … but that’s not what the bible says. If the line, through Jesus, will be re-established, to me that means he had kids too.

            But that’s a whole ‘nuther’ subject. :-)

            And there were 12 tribes of Israel, and then there are some folk who mention there were 13? :-)

            Love & Peace
            Ama

        • Morning Keith,

          One question the theology course answered for me, which ministers never did, was how Jesus was of the House of David when Mary had a virgin birth. :-) Joseph was of the House of David, and the link came down through him. Mary was only added to that side of the family later in history, when someone questioned how Jesus could be both the son of God and of the House of David. She didn’t belong to the line of David at all.

          First there is the history, and then there is the mystery, and I really love this stuff. :-)

          Love & Peace
          Ama

          • Ama,
            Now see what ya went and did? LOL! I guess the virgin birth did away with all that.

            Daggone, just when I think I’ve got an idea, you send me back on the hunt, God bless ya. That’s how real knowledge is gained.

            BUT… what do you think of the 6000 coming? Make sense at all?

          • 6000 coming, Keith? What is that about? I might know it by some other name?

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • Hi Ama,
            6,000th year of the current Hebrew calander. The messiah – the jewish one – has to come before their 6th millinea. The current year is 5,772. Could be why christians also think ‘end times are here.’

            Keith

          • Hi Keith

            228 years is a long time to think something is ‘here’ now. I don’t want this skermising that seems to be happening ‘as above so below’ to keep going that long. It would be nice if it was ‘done’ on the 21st December this year .. who knows? If something must happen, let it be wonderful! For everyone! Otherwise, I’ll be dead before the next ‘date’ .. and intend to take a long holiday ‘between lives’ before I come back again. LOL

            Love & Peace
            Ama

  7. Hi Keith!

    I can tell by the way you write that your faith is incredible!

    I don’t think we are seeing the same punishment strategy from God of The Old Testament.

    You say people angered God and as a father, he handed out punishments that became more and more severe because the people would not listen…and because nothing else worked.

    I see the opposite of what you’re saying, I see God (or what is being called God) being upset all the time – angry, jealous, vengeful, etc. For the most part, warning after warning was not given.

    It was more like a surprise for the doomed. God hates your ways and therefore you’re gonna die tactic.

    The picture of love, peace, forgiveness and mercy that you paint of The New Testament, we can agree upon – for the most part at least. But what we’re seeing is the true nature of Jesus here – not necessarily the nature of God.

    • Ama, Robyn,
      All very good questions of which…honestly… I have answers that don’t make much sense! haha Ama, I’ve always thought the Job story was more of a ‘War’ between God and Satan that God put one of his best followers in the midst of, knowing he’d lose everything in the process. Maybe to prove a point to Satan that Gods finest will never abandon Him, even if He abandons them. Cruel? Yeah, but satan got the point. I’ve asked many of these questions with my talks with Pop, and he only had this to say; “We’ll never know the mind of God, or why he did those things. Keith, the writers of the Old Testament were often thought to have ‘embelished’ quite often as a way of frightening the unbelievers, like during the Inquisition. There are many unsettling things in the OT for me too.” that’s coming from a lifelong minister. After he said that he asked what I thought. I said I didn’t know, but I like God a lot more after the new covenant!! I agree, Ama… The NT Jesus, and ‘that’ God is Holy in every sense. I chose to love Him and follow Jesus. That is the God I know in my heart and would die for before denouncing. Robyn, yeah…I TOTALLY think we’ve evolved in our moral senses in 6,000 years. I believe always, but like ya’ll, I ask often. Paul said God expects us to ask and investigate, that it is a good thing. Thats one of the many reasons I have become a ‘frequent flyer’ on this site!

      • and as far as the Jewish homeland, I fear for them being surrounded by all Arab countries that want to wipe’em out. They’re in a very precarious situation right now. I guess we’ll have to wait and see… but I HOPE it NEVER happens!

      • (hehe) Hey CT .. does this site come with Frequent Flyer points? If it does, I must own an airplane by now. ROFL

        Keith, no offense intended, but I cannot see anything in Job to support your thoughts, and I reread it, line by line, just before Xmas. Where is the God of Love and Forgivness, taught to us by Jesus? Job’s ‘god’ turned into a pompous creep at the end of the book. After the horrible things he allowed to happen to Job and family (and servants etc), why didn’t he have the courage to say he was sorry? He had allowed Job’s punishment to show Satan He (God) was the more powerful being, worthy of deep and devoted love from his followers, but the truth was, he proved himself to be just like Satan – boastful, uncaring, unloving and harsh.

        It doesn’t work for me at all. Could you see Jesus’ God doing something like that? Jesus banished demons. He helped anyone who asked. God did not help Job, even when he asked. The ‘reasoning’ that we will ‘never understand how God thinks etc’, or why he did what he did is .. to me .. a cop-out. Instead of stopping and reviewing ‘God’s’ behaviour, we make excuses for it? Just from the 10 commandments alone, I could apply 6, 8 and 10, shows there’s something seriously wrong with an entity that says one thing and goes ahead and does another. And what message did Satan get from it .. that God allows his followers to be killed (the kids were followers too), harmed, tormented, tortured, struck ill, ground down to breaking point (the wife) .. and God will do nothing to stop it. No wonder this book drives people away from Christianity .. and believe me, it does. It’s one of the ones people always mention to me when we discuss why they chose other belief systems. It’s a very well known book.

        The only mystery to me here is that people make excuses for God’s demonic behaviour .. or even allowed this book to be in the bible at all, given that it shows ‘god’ to be a monster … just like satan.

        Love & Peace
        Ama

        • You have well over 1500 comments thus far :)

          • Eek .. hmm.. LOL Speechless .. for a change. :-) Oh well, I always knew I talk (write) a lot. :-)

            Love & Peace
            Ama
            p.s. I love ‘stats’ :-)

          • Way to go, Ama! Yey!

          • Thanks AJ. LOL

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • CareTaker, just wanted to say what a real find this site was for me. I’ve always needed opinions, answers, advice with my many thoughts and ways that Nowhere Else have I found on the web where people don’t get pure nasty over any differences of opinion with spiritual matters. We actually communicate, and that is so refreshing! Thanks

            Keith

          • Thanks, I appreciate that a lot Keith. Occasionally people do get mean and nasty here (too often) but their comments are dealt with by clicking a “trash” button.

          • I second Keith’s comment, and appreciate the ‘trash’ button as well.

            We have fun here, we don’t need flames.

            Love & Peace
            Ama

        • Hi Ama

          “The only mystery to me here is that people make excuses for God�s demonic behaviour .. ”

          It’s no mystery to me. It’s more of a case of: lets blame God for mans actions or, lets blame God for mans misfortunes, than anything actually being a real Act Of God. God must’ve been really banging his head against the back of His throne at some of the things He got the blame for.

          I’ve had some really bad things happen to me and my kin in my life, just as everyone else has, but I don’t put the onus on God – ie assume it to be Gods punishment and therefore it is He who should get the blame for my misfortune. However, 4000 years ago, I might well have thought differently about this and blamed God for every single one of my life-troubles because that is how He was purceived to be back then – ie a vengeful God. But we all now know that outdated concept of God simply isn’t the truth of it, thanks to Jesus’ teaching and interpretation.

          So I will stand up for God of the OT for He is exactly the same God as the NT God, despite the bad press He received from the Israelites over millenia …. not to mention some Christian denominations who still, to this day, teach the ‘burn in hell’ theology.

          Seems strange to me that even some Christians today are guilty of embrassing a ‘vengeful’ God concept, despite all that their hero, Jesus, said and taught (sigh).

          AJ
          x

          • LOL! CT! I did say ‘gentle’ .. and you made a fair comment.

            AJ
            x

        • “.. that God allows his followers to be killed (the kids were followers too), harmed, tormented, tortured, struck ill, ground down to breaking point (the wife) .. and God will do nothing to stop it.”

          And God ‘did nothing’ to stop Jesus being crucified either!!! Horses for courses I’m afraid and I really can’t see the difference om ‘God-Like’ behaviour, myself. But then, there’s a far greater glory awaiting us in Heaven than anything here on earth – we are here but for a fraction of a second, in the great scheme of things.

          AJ
          x

          • Hi AJ,

            Doesn’t it all come down to belief? :-)

            The difference for me was that Jesus knew that he was called by God for something special, but what did Job know? Jesus was given a choice, he could have said no, its written in the bible, but what choice was Job given?

            I know you don’t believe that Jesus was anything but a prophet, which he was, but .. he was also something entirely different, and called to serve a higher purpose. But for me that understanding comes from belief and experience of Jesus, through many lifetimes, not from the bible.

            God does not interfere in our lives. That is what free will is all about. Our right to choose our own destiny. The ‘god’ described in the old testament is not EL, not Jesus’ God. Using that term gives people the wrong idea about our Loving God, they make the mistake of fearing the actions of the OT entity, then get into huge conflict inside their minds trying to love a deity that would torment them in a moment. It doesn’t help that most of the teachings in the NT are based on the OT. That’s where the contradictions come in. I agree the OT God is EL there and all the way through the NT, but Jehovah was never a god to me, only trouble. LOL

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • Hi Ama

            The BIGGEST ‘problem’ I have with the OT is the amount of stories which presume folk took instruction DIRECTLY from God. It seemed to be a right of passage somehow for most prophets.

            There is not, nor has there ever been in all of history, a human who was/is righteous enough or pure of heart and soul enough to be ‘worthy’ of direct contact with God. Not even Jesus. The very fact that we’re living breathing physical beings makes us impure spiritually because we have earthly ‘desires’ to contend with in our hearts and minds as well as striving for Holy purity.

            This is why, I believe, God’s created Malakhim angels (messengers) have always been sent to them/us, without exception, in order that God could communicate with ‘impure’ humans through them.

            Anyone who claims to have a ‘direct line’ to God are either:
            1. deluded through ego, or self-importance
            2. using God as leverage for their own power or influence, or
            3. ignorant (simply have no idea who they are actually taking instruction from and just assume it to be God because it claimed to be God)

            That said, a lot of stories in the OT use the term ‘Lord’ and not God/Jehovah/Yahweh. I always titled the Archangels as ‘Lord’ (Lord Raphael, Lord Michael etc.) So it may well have been that those communicating with spirit at the time knew it was the Malakhim, and not God Himself they were talking to but, somehow – probably to make the story appear more Holy and important due to its divine nature – it was later assumed the term ‘Lord’ meant God. (FWIW – Lord is also a title for the devil – Lord of Darkness – so why would anyone just presume the title ‘Lord’ refers to God?)

            And, of course, my number 3 does give Satan a really wide, open door to just swan in and take over the lives of the God-fearing folk and wreak havoc under the guise of God …. and there are plenty of stories in the OT where, yes, I agree with you – Satan was the dominant, driving force behind all the really cruel and nasty stuff documented in the OT. Infact, it still goes on today … just think of martyrdom commited in the name of God/Allah/Yahweh. God hasn’t told them to kill the infidels in His name – but those martyr’s believe He has, because they are deluded.

            So, to me the point of the OT is to teach us valuable lessons on how to distinguish between spirit and not just accept that every angel which presents itself to us is either God Himself, or a bodifide messenger of God. (After all, Samael is a beautiful angel to look at, is it not?) Nor should we automatically accept what everything said to us is the whole truth, just because spirit proclaims to be something Holy. This is a valuaable lesson which Jesus taught those who hadn’t already worked it out for themselves – always test the spirits.

            So, back to God of the OT. IMV it is the same God and He behaved the same way. He gave folk the opportunity to learn through listening to their hearts and acting on it (rather than interfering). It was the same back then just as it continues to be today. The fact that a lot of them chose violence, vengance or war in the OT is down to humans following their own petty desires, not Divine instruction or desire.

            That’s why I much prefer the OT – not only are the stories/history of mankind very interesting, but I love the detective work involved to get to the bottom of what was really going on during those times … and how much of it favours ficton over fact. LOL!

            AJ
            x

          • I am curious, where do you get the idea that a person has to be “righteous enough or pure of heart and soul enough to be �worthy� of direct contact with God”?

          • No man or woman is without ‘sin’, CT – I blame hormones personally, lol! But, to stand before God or to converse with God, requires absolute purity. Otherwise, whats the point of Heaven, hell or sending earthbound spirit to healing?

            To be free from ‘sin’ means to be free from the shackles of negativity of every kind – that includes that little grumble under the breath whenever a fundie post on here (think we’re all guilty of that one – lol!)

            However, messenger angels are able to convey Gods words very effectively with out the need to be pure of heart before being in their presence. Just have a good heart which is striving to be pure is good enough.

            AJ
            x

          • I do not believe that it would require absolute purity or being free of sin.

          • Guess it depends on how a person defines ‘sin’, CT.

            To a Buddhist, it is against their philosophy, and therefore ‘sinful’, to kill an ant. Would we define squishing an ant as an act of ‘sin’? Probably not. But that doesn’t make it right, because the act of killing that ant was done out of meanness. It was a negative act.

            Just remember, Gods holy angels are without sin because they are pure positive energy – the Holy spirit of God. They love unconditionally. They have no ego’s. Even so, angel philosophy states that only the higher ranking of the angelic Hierarchy stand before God. The lower choirs send messages to God through the higher ranking angels. So, if a lower ranking angel, who is pure and Holy, is not be permitted to speak directly with God, what makes any human think that they are permitted to? Ego, probably!

            AJ
            x

          • I understand and I do agree but this page is in reference to the Bible and what it says :) so the discussion is really limited to the God of the Bible, Judaism and Chirstianity.

          • Morning AJ, :-)

            You have some really good points in your comment, but I don’t think I fit into any of your three categories. I admit I have a good ego, but I don’t think its out of control. My family happily squashes me anytime I get even close to pompous or cranky. LOL Again our thoughts all come down to belief or experience.

            My own personal experiences refute your belief that we cannot see and talk to God directly if we are sinful. God loves us unconditionally, therefore he/it does not see us as sinful. God does not make ‘a measure’ of us -to do that would mean that the love was conditional, and to keep us away from him/it because we do not ‘measure up’ would also be a judgment.

            And so many other people have touched God. You and I might decide they only had contact with an angel, but angels do not actually ‘exist’ autonomous of God, they are the Holy Spirit in action, and the Holy Spirit is God. It is not a separate entity, although the church tried to make it one. The most awful ‘sinners’ have had their lives turned around in that moment. God did not shut me out when I was at my worst, I was welcomed Home like a long lost child. It’s not something a person can forget. But then, I might be deluded.

            I agree with you about people’s interpretations of who is speaking to them in the OT. Jehovah has a very large voice, and for the most part issues instructions to do a great deal of harm. The ‘Lord’ could be either him, or another demon, going by behaviours. Occasionally they do something nice, but there always seems to be ulterior motive.

            I also love trying to divine truth from fiction in those ‘books’, but we only have our own opinions – even firmly held, they are still just opinions. The books were written down thousands of years after the stories were first created. In this modern age we can have no idea of their truth or not.

            I wish the OT did teach people how to divine which was a good guy and which isn’t, but I can’t see anywhere where that happens. Can you name a few places?

            Yes, Samael is the most beautiful of all the beings God created, but that’s only on the outside. Inside she’s a nasty piece of work and she gives off that feeling to anyone she contacts. You cannot mistake her for an Light angel when your soul is twisting itself in knots to try and get away. But that is just my experience. :-) No one can touch true evil and not be changed, nor can they touch true Love/God and remain the same.

            You and I deal with angels all the time. I do not separate them from God, because they do not separate themselves from Him/it in any moment. Separation was what led to Samael falling in the first place, and yet, even she, the darkest of all demons, is not truly separated either.

            In my experience, God loves all of its creations and would never refuse any of us a moment of His/its time.

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • Hi Ama

            I don’t seperate the angels from God either, I just don’t believe I am ‘pure in spirit’ or free from ‘sin’ or without ‘ego’(note the quotation marks around the words – I’m generalising) so therefore I’m not ‘worthy’ to talk to God directly, hense the angel intemediaries. Admitedly this belief is more akin to Hinduism than Christianity (they go through demi-Gods in order to reach God) as well as angel theology – in Heaven as it is on earth.

            Anyway, got a gentle knuckle-wrap from CT yesterday for going off topic – LOL! So I’ll say no more about it on this thread.

            AJ
            x

          • Hey now, I didnt give you a knuckle rap at all. I was only saying that the queestion is about the God of the Bible and not about other religions or beliefs. :)

      • BTW, I would love you to share any of your answers ‘that don’t make sense’ .. they might to us. Those of us, anyway, who ‘think outside the box’. :-)

        Love & Peace
        Ama

  8. LOL, Ama…
    Ok… I reached down and picked up my trusty bible and turned it to the rarely-looked-at-by-me OT. You are indeed correct. I can most certainly believe it drives folks away. I’m a NT guy… but still, I don’t know the mind of God, maybe I just need to believe He was right? It doesn’t make sense, what He did. I’m superstitious about my faith (read: scared to change hehe). You are so right though. The God of Jesus, He is the One I love, the One that loves me. This God would never destroy my loved ones on purpose. oh boy… Hmmm… more thought needed… ;)

    • Hello Keith

      God created us to grow and learn .. otherwise Paul would not have said we should question things (your comment). Sometimes part of the learning leads us away from man-made creations.

      My journey with the Christian Bible and my faith has been long and complicated by my own fear of change. I wanted to be accepted by people, Keith, not condemned to hell for my ‘heretical’ beliefs. It took my own brush with cancer, just last year, to make me turn around and stop walking away ‘from’ God, just because I couldn’t reconcile my knowledge of the problems with the bible with my fear of wanting to not be burned at the stake. LOL

      God is patient, God is kind. He understands when we are frightened, and he leads us into the Light/Life, when we let Him. He gave us this incredible gift of free will. If we want to stand still all our lives, he’ll still love us profoundly when we return to him at the end of it. If we want to be radical fundamentalists, or athiests, or belong to every religion in between, or all of them at once, in our lifetimes .. my understanding is he’s good with that too. There is only one creator, but all of us see him differently. What matters is how we treat each of His creations, ourselves, the people that we love, the people we hate, all of nature and this planet. He said ‘love one another as I have loved you’, and then sent Jesus to be sacrified so that we could have back that which we had lost, so long ago .. the right of choice, of going Home when we died, rather than into the place people now remember as hell. It was our will that lost it to us, and it was his gift to restore it, because we could not do it for ourselves. Well, the captors like to remind us that we used to be their victims, but with God and JC on our side, no imprisonment is ever permanent. Free will is an incredibly complicated subject, particularly when it comes to demonology. But we’ll leave that for today.

      I wanted to be a minister in a church, I even went to University and studied theology, as I said, but, interestingly enough, here I am back doing what I’ve done all these years .. helping people with paranormal problems. It is what I love, only now I’m more inclined to say ‘God loves you’, whether people want to hear it or not. LOL

      Do not live in fear of change. You will not be inhabited by that creature who haunts you by allowing yourself to grow and learn. God saved you, Keith. He doesn’t do things without a reason. He gave you a gift. All of life is about exchange. What gift are you returning to him – a wiser stronger self?

      Love & Peace
      Ama

      • Ahh… you just put me at ease a bit. :) I really do think, now that I’ve “thought” lol, that is why I rarely, if ever hear a sermon on the OT. The church wouldn’t want us to be scared out of our minds by our own God. Being a christian has little to do with anything in the OT, hence the “NT.” haha

        I do love Isiah/Proverbs ans Psalms though (Solomon was so elequent of a writer!) and find much in these books that are “Jivin’ with Jesus.” (oh cool! I’ve made a new slogan. T-shirt sales in the thousands!)

        Thank you for…well, just thanks!
        Oh, am writing you that personal mssg return now, Ama….

        • Keith: “The church wouldn�t want us to be scared out of our minds by our own God”

          Hmm.. I don’t know, Keith. You should consider some of the Anglican churches I have been to over the years. Some preachers LOVE hell and brimstone lecturers .. and if one more bishop tells me all women are evil because of Eve eating an apple (yes he said that .. which bible does he read from???), I may bop him in the eye. LOL

          I love psalms, 139 in particular, to calls to my soul.

          I’ll have a t-shirt. LOL

          Love & Peace
          Ama
          p.s. CT, I think I remember you wanting commission from all sales from this site. LOL :-)

          • Hi Ama,
            Dad gave a guest sermon at Westminster Abbey right after he finished his M.div there at Westminster seminary. Said it was the biggest honor that a church with that importance in history could ever given him. During communion. Just a little wine spilt onto the carpet (not dad’s fault! lol he’d have been in deep do-do) Well, the minister quickly had the little piece of carpet cut out/removed and placed in the chalice!!! He didn’t want to sip from that thing, but did, as he was a guest minister and helped to serve it. Very strange. He’d also commented that they were ‘conservative’ lol when it came to women. They had to wear hats and couldn’t remove them. Apparently, the wine isn’t a symbol there, but is the actual blood of Christ once poured and blessed.

          • Yes, the wine becomes the blood of Christ, according to church teachings. Now we have changed to grape juice. How does that affect communion? I have not been game enough to ask. We have gone back from saying it is ‘changed utterly’ to ‘its all symbolic’. Whatever. It was only ever symbolic to me anyway.

            Luckily for your father, alcoholic is a good disinfectant. I don’t know what I would have done in his situation, but probalby have had a sip as well. That’s ‘faith’ in action. LOL

            Love & Peace
            Ama

  9. You know what? Ive seen the light, so to speak… the OT just doesn’t fit God. I agree with you, AJ on one very important point: God probably does have a huge knot on the back of His head. He got bad press for sure. :)

    • He certainly has, Keith – He certainly has!

      AJ
      x

    • I agree with that too, Keith. God got all the bad press, but I also believe that the ‘actor’ in the OT ‘play’ was not God, and I don’t believe it was all just human misinterpretation of what was happening to them, or them blaming God instead of looking at themselves, that people were recording in their oral stories. The patterns of demonic behaviour repeat in current times.

      Love & Peace
      Ama

      • I’m beginning to think for myself – for many recent reasons, actually – which you know of, Ama. The free will is a gift, and one that should be used to think critically with. No, I have not been reading much today in the OT that is like Jesus. If He was the same God, then he must be bipolar! I’m no longer afraid to ask, wonder, figure out… and think for myself. THIS is what God wants from us, I sincerely believe. Especially now that I am beginning to allow myself to be what God made me. Ama, I am still anxiously awaiting some more advice on what to “not do” so early in my purpose as to what I should do. My step-daughter got in my truck after school very upset about something. Then she said, “Keith, I love you so much. I just forget all that junk when I talk with you.” My heart melted. Yes, Ama, not all is evil and dark.

      • It takes a lot of courage to start thinking for ourselves, Keith. We are taught to follow where our ‘elders’ lead us – old age is supposed to mean wisdom, but .. I learned very young that it only happens in some cases, and mostly with people who have chosen to think for themselves. Have fun with it. There is so much to learn in, and of, our beautiful world.

        Your step-daughter sounds lovely. I’m glad you can be of such benefit to her. My daughter and my partner are developing a lovely relationship too. It’s fun to watch.

        Love & Peace
        Ama

  10. BTW, Ama, I’ve discovered something today about my Freemasonry that I have not yet been ‘officially’ told. It’s above my degree, I am sure, but I can share what I ‘think I know’ with you about a I new discovery I found today by personal message. It blew my mind. Simce I’ve yet to learn it, it is not ‘secret’ but I cannot post it here….

    • It’s sort of like danging a worm in front of a fish. So many people will want to know your ‘secret’ Keith. LOL

      Love & Peace
      Ama :-)