What is Salvation all About and is it Necessary?

Christians say that the way to heaven is through Jesus and they say that you have to accept Jesus as your personal savior.

I believe in Jesus but It’s always seemed wrong to me somehow that I could go straight to heaven and make Jesus suffer for what I’ve done wrong.

I feel like, if someone has to suffer for the ‘sins’ I’ve done then it should be me.

I feel like I could never be happy or ‘in heaven’ if I didn’t feel I deserved to be there.

This question has played on my mind for a while especially thinking I may have to suffer when I die.

I would also like to point out that not too long ago I woke up in the morning and clearly heard a voice tell me “God will forgive you if you forgive others”

I would really like to hear people opinions, Thank you.

Asked by Gemma

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  1. Hello Gemma,

    Were you very angry with someone at the time you heard those words?

    One thing the angels taught me is that they teach us at a level we can understand and accept .. or just above what our minds think we can grasp and we ‘grow’ into the information, or not.

    I know its hard, sometimes, to accept that someone will sacrifice themselves for others, or just for you, but it happens during times of war .. when one person throws themselves on a grenade to protect all the others (there are many other examples of this too). Yes, its horrible, but it is a truly loving act. I admit I wonder about the motives of the person who does it, having gone through the ‘hero – must save everyone’ phase, but with the understanding that I have of heaven, what they did will have true benefits for them once they cross over, and into other lives.

    Jesus was crucified. There’s proof of that now. If you believe he was a man, then he was hung up as a leader, military or spiritual, of a band of renegades that was upsetting the Roman rule, and the Jewish ‘church’ .. if you believe he was the son of God, Jesus Christ, then his sacrifice created a wave of energy throughout the world, not just in the little land of Israel, that changed the energy structure of a prison that bound the souls of humanity to earth. That might not be written in the bible, but it IS written that the ‘saints’ (wise men) of up to 1000 years in the past, were suddenly seen walking among the people after the resurrection. Since they had been dead for that long or less, of course, they had to be spirits .. and where were they before that? I have my theories.

    So we have this lovely freedom, and direct access to God (who Jesus Christ IS according to the Christians), but .. where does the church fit in? It doesn’t. So suddenly we can only get to God through Jesus, and to Jesus only through Christianity – and so there suddenly is only ‘one’ true religion – religion that quickly absorbs or adopts a lot of the beliefs of religions that have gone before it as it spreads across the world? Why did it need to do that if it was the only ‘true’ religion?

    When deciding whether you deserve to be in heaven or not, I would start by asking Jesus, when you get there, how he felt about what happened. You might find that his was a loving gesture so that people like you and me ‘could’ get there, and feel safe there, with God. I agree that we should repay everyone for the harm that we do to them – that’s why we have karma. I know its a Hindu word, but it is what it is .. cause and effect. For everything that I do, for good or evil, there is an opposite repercussion for me. So when I am good, I receive goodness, and when I am not good I receive a balancing slap, or worse. It might not be in this lifetime, but it will be in others.

    Removing the concept of reincarnation, or multiple lifetimes, from the Bible meant that we only had ONE life to get it right, so we HAD to follow the rules .. and who laid down the rules .. the Church. And reincarnation was one of the teachings of many philosophers both before and after Jesus, and Jesus said, among other things, “Elijah is himself again” when he spoke of John the Baptist. (Matt 17:12-13)

    Jesus taught us that God loves us, and that in forgiving others God is forgiving us. Personally I don’t believe God judges and therefore there is no need for him to forgive anyone, but we, as humans feel we need forgiveness and so He does, for us.

    Because we have free will we have the right to choose our behaviour, and whether we go to heaven or not. From my experience, we don’t go to hell, hell is a home for demons and humans who try to venture there never stay long. We belong in heaven, first in healing, and then in peace – until boredom sets in and we want to make this journey all over again. :-)

    Something to think about,
    Love & Peace
    Ama Nazra

    • God I can waffle sometimes. The question was ‘what is salvation all about and is it necessary .. the answer .. in brief … salvation is what happened when Jesus died and the Christ energy freed the human spirit (collective), as I said above. It is not some future event. Was it necessary? Yes, in my opinion. My belief is that humanity was under the thumb of the devil before the Christ energy set us all free. Now it can only harass the majority, and oppress and possess a few souls .. it no longer has direct control over God’s creations – a control we gave it, in our struggle to learn about ourselves, and in seeking the usual, instead of seeking God. Well .. guess what .. we live and learn, and hopefully – do not repeat our mistakes. I can understand when the church says to stay away from the occult .. because we can get lost in there, there is so much that people do not understand about the entities they ‘think’ are friendly. Best to be very cautious in all our contact with anything that offers ‘everything’ with no strings attached .. there are always strings .. and sometimes they are ropes that bind, or chains that we cannot seem to break without an act of Grace.

      Love & Peace

  2. Hi Gemma

    Great question:

    Q1. Christians say that the way to heaven is through Jesus and they say that you have to accept Jesus as your personal savior.

    A That is a way to Heaven FOR CHRISTIANS. But the words “HAVE TO” are just pure arrogance on the part of the doctrine. Non-christians go to Heaven too. There are many roads to God.

    Q2. I believe in Jesus but It’s always seemed wrong to me somehow that I could go straight to heaven and make Jesus suffer for what I’ve done wrong.

    A. I could never get into the Christian’s head with this one either. To me, Jesus’ cruxifiction was more about making sure he was remembered (through a violent act) than anything else, of a supernatural nature or otherwise. If he had just wandered off into the desert and preached until he died of old age, would he have made such an impact? Christians made a martyr of him – that is all.

    “God will forgive you if you forgive others”

    This is true – treat others as you would like to be treated and you will be pleasing in God’s sight.


  3. Gemma,
    Why do we need to go to heaven? Christians say that “only those that accept Christ will enter through the gates into heaven.” Well that doesn’t seem fair. If I don believe in Christ, that shouldn’t be the deciding factor on whether I can enjoy eternal bliss. A.J. said “non-Christian could enter into heaven.” Heaven is a Christian teaching. I’m not going to ask a mechanic, “how do I build this addition to my house.” It’s a different trade altogether. Same with religion. I won’t ask a non-Christian about Christianity. It will feel like opinion, rather than an actual teaching. Hope you didn’t get offended by that, A.J. My point or theory of this is, maybe there is no heaven. Maybe this is our one life to live, and should take advantage of it.
    Maybe heaven was just a story taught, to get one’s follows to act appropriately. If you think about it, it’s a lot less confusing on who’s able to go or who isn’t able to enter in to heaven. Why can’t we be a good person just to be a good person. Why do we need to get a reward. Don’t let that be your reason of doing an act of kindness. It wouldn’t be sincere. Hey, if I’m wrong about the whole heaven thing, I’m sure your higher power would still take in consideration of your works of kindness when judging you. It’s a win, win.
    I think we shouldn’t let the whole “ getting in to heaven” consume us. We have enough problems as it is today. Enjoy your life now. Also whether that was an Angel, or a little cricket named “Your Conscience.” Don’t hold grudges. It’s not healthy. Forgive, forgive and forgive. Hope I didn’t ramble on.

    • Hi Ted Heard

      I’m never offended by other peoples opinions, nor their beliefs for that matter.

      You said: “Heaven is a Christian teaching.” I would add Judaic and Islamic on to that. All three religions originate from the same scriptures and teachings. Its only the ‘evolution’ of each individual religion that seperates them – not the basic concept.

      “Heaven”, to me, is a name given to describe the God source. When we ‘go to heaven’ we are actually going back to be with God. Call it Heaven, or call it healing; the promised land or know it by any other name, makes no difference in my view. When our bodies die, our spirit (or soul, or whatever you want to call it) is free to return home if it wants to.

      I agree that if we concentrate on the here and now, and conduct ourselves in as godly a way as we can (being kind, forgiving, giving etc etc etc) then that is what makes us a better person – not what religion we follow.


      • AJ,

        I agree that we should live a moral life but you know as well as anyone thst none of us as human beings can be good enough to go to Heaven by ourr own goodness. Being good for your reasons is useless.when it comes to our eternity. We must know God personally and follow Christ 2 commandments, to love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. Do these 2 things and everything else will follow. Again we always hear people say a loving God would not send a good person to hell. Here is just one example from the Bible that explains.
        Hebrews 10: 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think those deserve to be punished who have trampled the Son of God underfoot, who have treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who have insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

        • Hi JK

          “… but you know as well as anyone… .”

          Actually, NO! I DO NOT know ‘as well as anyone’. (I presume when you say ‘anyone’ you mean Christians!?).

          “… none of us as human beings can be good enough to go to Heaven by ourr own goodness. Being good for your reasons is useless.when it comes to our eternity.”

          That statement is your interpretation, not mine. Please do not presume to know what my beliefs are, JK. Do not put words into my mouth. And please do not assume that I take the Christian stance on this matter, because I do not.

          When are Christian’s like you going to realise that you guys do not have a monopoly on God?

          “Again we always hear people say a loving God would not send a good person to hell. Here is just one example from the Bible that explains. Hebrews 10: 28”

          Unlike you, I do not believe the Bible to be entirely accurate and truthful when it comes to God’s Word ….. because it was:
          A) written by men,
          B) manipulated by man to suit man’s own selfish desires, and
          C) a lot of the Holy Scriptures (the more controversial ones) have been omitted from the Christian Bible.

          Why (C)? Because if we were to have ‘access’ to those, then we might actually start getting a better understanding of God through our hearts, rather than from MAN’S written word. Words which, for the most part, suppress the masses, rather than fulfil our spiritual selves.

          I could never understand the concept of a ‘devout’ Christian (IRA for example) – who kills or maims another with bombs, guns, knives or torture – being allowed to enter Heaven, whilst a humanitarian – devoting their time entirely to others, with no time left to attend a religious gathering just to make a PUBLIC STATEMENT – are not be allowed to enter Heaven. This concept simply does not make sense to me. The former is an evil human being, whilst that latter actually lives their lives in the spirit of God. So why, do you think, God would turn those away who have shown mercy and kindness all their lives? Why would these people end up in hell?

          I really would love to understand the mechanic’s of your beliefs on this matter – not just scripture quoting please, but what YOUR explanation is, from the heart.


          • It’s a pleasure to read your comments AJ. Thank you.

            JK, I would also like to know the ‘why’ of what you believe .. apart from “its written in the Book”. Blind faith .. faith without questioning .. can be sooo destructive! Even Jesus didn’t do that. Think of Gethsemane (the garden where Jesus was arrested just before the end, for those who don’t know) .. He sat there among his sleeping disciples questioning God about his fate. He would not have done that if he feared God, or if he had no choice in what was about to happen to him .. and he did know.

            Love & Peace

          • AJ, I agree with you :)

          • AJ,

            You right about Christianity like you know it backwards and forwards. You make staements of how untrue and unfair Christianity is. You write books that have pieces of Christianity yet you don’t know much about it. My take is that you do know what it is all about and that God did not make multple ways to Heaven and you yourself know what it takes. I think someone in some church years agao during your younger life did something to you or you preceived that they did something that turned you against Christianity. I have tried many ways to prove the Bible wrong, I can’t. I could find generalities but nothing I could hang my hat on and I will not just hang my hat on generalities or hoping something is true. My relationship with Jehovah, Yaweh God is through Jesus Christ, it is His goodness and holiness that allows Christians to go to Heaven all we have to do is ask Him and we can take on His righteousness where we have none and never will without Him. I here people say oh it is unfair because I choose not to believe in Jesus. People choose not to seek Him or try to know Him. That is where the fault comes in. As I have said before, before I was faced with the choice to love God through what Christ did for all of us, I did not even know there was a choice to be made. When I chose Him then I knew it had to be a choice for Him. Everyone that has heard of Jesus Christ has to make that choice. No one forces people to choose Jesus. If one does not want to choose then one rejects the way to God. I am not telling you that you must believe. You can believe what you want and I will not harass you. Just to be safe, just in case you are wrong, I would say that any unbeliever should tread very cautiously at advising people about Christianity when you are not a Christian, nor do you want to be one. If a non-believer is nuetral that is one thing but if you are blatantly out there telling people what you don’t believe about Christianity and that the Bible is not true and they believe you and do not seek God through Christ Jesus, you could very well be bringing something down on yourself. What I am saying is, if you do not believe in Christianity then take the Physicians Hypochratic Oath and do no harm.

          • Hi JK

            Well – at least you’ve read my book in order to comment on it. Thanks!

            Oh! hang on … but my book isn’t about Christianity. It’s about the power and majesty of God over evil and how He works in the most mysterious ways.

            Merry Christmas to you


          • You do realize JK, that people can speak of God without it having anything to do with Christianity. That’s the problem here, a good portion of Christians (not all mind you) think they own God, that he is theirs and theirs alone, and that no other religion or spirituality has a right to speak of him. We don’t all believe the same things JK. To put it bluntly, your take on religion is one I find incredibly frightening. I would never want to live my life in fear of my creator. I wouldn’t want to live my life believing I am unworthy of God’s love, or that from the moment of birth, I was a sinner. It makes me feel debased just thinking about it. Regardless though, I respect your opinion. The only thing I would ask of you is that you respect the opinion of everyone else here, rather than taking offense when their personal beliefs about God and the afterlife don’t match up exactly to yours. It doesn’t negate anything your saying. It’s just a different perspective. Don’t be scared of it…reading it doesn’t mean you’re evil. It just means your open-minded.

    • I like your comment too, Ted. :-)

      Although I am a believer in reincarnation, having so many memories of previous lives, and my time between lives, I think we should always dedicate our energy to doing the best we can, and being the best we can, in each and every lifetime we have here on planet Home .. or any other planet a person might end up spending time on – given that I know a few people who have had lives on Pleiades. I don’t believe that ‘paying back karma later’ should be treated as an excuse for bad behaviour in the here and now.

      And I absolutely agree that we should be good for the sake of goodness, and not because we are either fearful of judgment, or are expecting some great prize at the end of it all. Although I call myself Christian, the more I dig into ‘Christianity’ the further I pull away. I may end up like AJ, believing truly in God, and the Holy Spirit/Christ energy and having no time for Christian beliefs. It’s very sad, because there are some good teachings in there, once you dig past the almost 2000 years of accumulated opinions.

      Love & Peace

      • As am I, Ama. Reincarnation makes a lot of sense when you really think about it. How could we possibly really truly, and fully, learn about this beautiful world in one lifetime? It doesn’t seem possible. I also find the thought of reincarnation to be comforting. I like my lessons, I want to soak up everything I can and this life just doesn’t feel long enough to achieve that :)

        • I good soak is a wonderful thing. LOL And we have so much to learn Diana. We can’t possibly know enough about love in one lifetime, if that lifetime is full of pain and fear. No, we need time to experiences all of God’s wonders.

          Great answer, Diana. Thank you.

          Love & Peace

  4. Gemma,

    I highly suggest that you talk with a Christian Pastor or even someone you know that is a Christian if you want to learn about what Christ really did for all of us. As you can tell, on a website like this one you are going to encounter many different interpretations and that is exactly what these post above are. They are anti-Chistian views from folks that for one reason or another do not think that the Bible is true (or not all of it) and that Jesus was not who He says that He is. It sounds all logical until you actually talk to a Christian. I am not going to get into an argument on this sight, that is why I suggest that if you are really interested in learning who Jesus is and what He has done for us and still does for us, just go to Church or ask around your friends, it will not be hard to find a true believer. When I read through there post, as a Christian, what I see is a mix of all types of beliefs and religions. We are told in the Bible that God is not a God of confusion. The evil that is always around us is beant on confusing every person that does not know Jesus in a way that will keep them from ever knowing Him. As I said earlier, I am a Christian and I know Jesus Christ personally and His Holy Spirit lives in me because I asked Him to. Now when I read the Bible it makes perfect sense. When I here a sermon it makes perfect sense. The difference with being a Christian is that we really do not have to have a “religion”. Religion is a word that the enemy uses to try and lump being a true believer in with all other religions. Christianity is a daily loving relationship with God made available to all of us through His death on the cross. Do you have to go to church to be a Believer? No, but you would miss out on a lot. Are there any funny rituals or ceremonies that I have to go through to be a Christian? Absolutely not, however, being baptized is a way that we outwardly show our inward change once we accept Jesus’ sacrifice to God as our own. I know there are lots of questions but this is not the best place to get true Biblical answers. Christ died for us because God loved us enough to let that happen. Is CHristianity exclusive? No, God loves everyone and Jesus died and rose again for us all. God gave us all free will to choose to love Him and follow Him or not, but there are consequences to not choosing Him and that is what Heaven and Hell is all about. Some might say “If He is a loving God how could He send good people to hell”? The answer is that God never sends anyone to hell people choose not to love Him and everyone has that choice. I chose to love Him because He first loved me. Get your phone book out and find a good Christian church, go there and check it out. Grab a Bible and read it. It was the best thing, I ever did and I am not alone there are close to 2 billion other believers walking around that you can ask.

    • Hi JK, lovely to see you again. :-) I just love the way you spark my thoughts – here’s a few:

      AJ definitely says she’s not Christian, Ted I’m not sure about, but I definitely am Christian, according to the ‘Free Dictionary’ online – “Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.” And what did Jesus teach, Love God, Love other people as yourself, and follow the Laws .. and then along came Paul, and the Laws suddenly didn’t apply? Because Jesus said he came to uphold the laws, and to fulfil them .. but he didn’t say they would stop after he was dead. No, that was Paul. So who are Christians following now?

      Let’s replace the word ‘religion’ with ‘belief system’ .. because you don’t like the word even though the translation is – Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. (same dictionary). That defines God for me, and the powers would be Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, according to Christian teachings .. so there’s no problem there.

      I know you don’t want to get into an argument, but you make for such great discussions! Thank you. Where was I …

      When I think of the number of Christians I have talked to over the years … and the confusion of their thoughts .. where they all decide theirs is the ONLY right belief system regardless of facts to the contrary – and they say they are Christian? But, which bit of Christianity is perfect, JK, because I will ascribe to that bit very happily, as long as there are no contradictions in Their unerring Word of God (Bible), the way there are in the one you and I read.

      http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_book.html BTW, the writer of the site is also discussing the Quran and the Mormon Bible, so he’s not just having a go at the Christians.

      I absolutely agree that God is not a God of confusion .. no, it takes a human being to do that ..

      I’m glad the Bible makes perfect sense to you, and that your Pastor’s interpretation of the Word also makes perfect sense. Have you dipped into that contradiction page, because I’ve posted the link a couple of times now? I would love you to explain some of them to me. I would love to have a perfect ‘Word’ (book) from God. I would even become a missionary and talk to people about reading it. But if I tried it with the current book, I would be a hypocrit.

      The ‘not go to Church’ bit, that wasn’t what they taught me at Sunday School – Methodist, or at the Anglican church when I was confirmed at 29, or in the Catholic church when I dropped in occasionally, or any of the other sects that I have come across over the years, usually knocking on my front door – so it might well just be an opinion, but didn’t God say we have to assemble together, and usually where his ‘high priest’ is (Hebrew 10:19-25)? Outside is good with me, I love trees, and Jesus did that, but he also went to the Jewish Synagogue. Hmm….

      Hang on a second, you don’t have to be baptised, confirmed, go to confession, get married, buried .. the Catholics do all of that – skipping confession, so do the Anglican. I was baptised, by my parents choice, and I think its a real blessing .. both my kids are baptised. Then, you don’t believe what John the Baptist was doing has any point? And true, water baptism, and oil if you are Greek Orthodox, is probably not as beneficial as a good dose of the Holy Spirit (the disciples at Pentecost), but, hey .. no problem .. its only in the Bible.

      Christ died for us ‘because God let it happen’. Now, I agree Jesus died on the cross for all of us .. I have no doubts about that at all .. but I do remember a conversation he had with Abba where he answered ‘ your will not mine’ .. but up until then I think he had the right to change his mind. Otherwise why have the conversation? Why struggle with it, which he was doing up until then? And doesn’t thinking that Jesus had no right to refuse, take away from the incredibly sacrifice that he CHOSE to make for us?

      Is Christianity exclusive? Yes, I believe Jesus died for all of us, and God sent him to earth for all of us .. except that Christianity teaches that a person is not ‘saved’ unless we BELIEVE in Him and his dying for all of us .. so sorry, Christianity does exclude those people from salvation who DO NOT BELIEVE that it happened. Thank God, God doesn’t. And us sending ourselves to hell because we don’t believe in God or Jesus? Why would we do that? No, someone else has to be doing the sending, because normal healthy people do not choose to punish themselves for their belief systems .. they only do that is they have a psychiatric condition.

      And I am one of the 2 billion other believers walking around .. and, sadly .. or maybe luckily … they don’t all believe the way you believe .. otherwise many of them are going to be broken hearted when they don’t get to heaven .. given that Revelation does specify that only 144,000 (that’s .0000139% (rounded up)) Christians are going to heaven. LOL Oh, it does say there are an indeterminate number of others .. but some people think they will be Jews. God I love that book! :-)

      So, as I said before, thank you JK .. I really love your posts. :-)

      Love & Peace

  5. Gemma, I meant to mention that if you are interested in all things spiritual and you would like to read about someone who tried it all in the spiritual world and finally found God through Jesus go to http://www.staciespielman.com/index.htm. Stacie has been on both sides and has a lot of knowledge about all things spiritual, as much as anyone can in my opinion. Check it out.

    • Thanks for the link JK, I’m going to check it out.

      Love & Peace

  6. Hi Ama, please do, Stacie is very accessable, I think you would enjoy talking with each other.

  7. JK. that website is just one womans opinion that everything other than the bible is evil.

    How many people have walked this earth thinking they are right and everyone else is wrong? and usually they are the ones who are most corrupt. Think of kings, queens, leaders and churches that think they are acting for God and their actions have led to the deaths and suffering of thousands.
    People thinking they are right has caused wars. Look at the Christians who were the crusaders, they listened to their pope and actually believed they would go straight to heaven for slaughtering Muslims.
    And now look at the sects of extreme Islam who believe the same thing by killing the Christians for revenge.
    Look at centuries gone by, Christians turn on Christians, You were executed for being a ‘heretic’ just for believing in another dominion.
    And even today we have these Baptist church protesters, even here in Australia saying everybody is going to hell. How hateful is that? and judgmental!

    Religion I believe was put in place by God to bring good and to show people how to live their life and it’s brought the complete opposite.

    You know, I just think it’s not important what you believe, I think it’s whats in your heart and what you do and say that matters to God. Instead of just loving Jesus, love everyone like Jesus does.

    One great thing I’ve read from people who have had the experience of dying and coming back to life, is that they have said God put all religions in place for those people because not one religion can work for all, we are all at different levels spiritually and need different things in our lives in order to get the best from us.

    • “Instead of just loving Jesus, love everyone like Jesus does.”

      What a great statement, Gemma!


      • Yes, its a lovely statement, Gemma. I should have said that too.

        Jesus loved everyone. If you believe the Bible, he spoke to everyone about God’s love for them .. didn’t matter who they were. I didn’t notice him applying the thumbscrews when he told them about heaven .. just said ‘follow me’.

        Interesting, for me anyway, the song Any Dream will do just popped into my mind .. haven’t heard it for years .. the words go

        “May I return, to the beginning .. the Light is dimming, and the dream is too ..
        the world and I .. we are still waiting, still hesitating .. any dream with do”.

        Joseph was a Biblical prophet for God, and yes, the words are a modern invention, and from a silly musical .. but also kind of appropriate right now, the dream the Christians had of taking over the world is fading rapidly .. perhaps God will find a way through the Muslim people teachings .. thought they also have their persecutors. Christian fear the Muslim Jihad, just as the Muslims had to fear, and probably still have to fear, Christian Crusadors. God help us all.

        Love & Peace

      • Gemma, I stole your quote yesterday when the opportunity arose. :) I was having someone talk about the importance of showing your gratitude and love for Jesus and I said – (well, you know what I said..lol) “Instead of just loving Jesus, love everyone like Jesus does.”

        They looked a bit confused, then annoyed and finally back to confused – gave me just enough time to get out of there….lol.


    • This is a beautiful sentiment, Gemma…and something about it really resonates the truth.

  8. It’s not just the Baptists here in Oz, Gemma, some spiritualist churches think all Christians are deluded, and that their ‘religion’ (spiritualism) is also the only ‘true one’. And they try and emotionally blackmail people into being trained as mediums, just because they have that gift .. it happened to my daughter, right in front of my eyes. Given she’s 25 I allowed my daughter to have her own say, and she was very polite, but .. we deeply offended the man when we refused to join his ‘army’.

    As for the webpage JK gave us. I expected the lady to be like that. I have found that some people, when they convert from one belief system to another, can get a little intense about the whole thing. :-)

    I’m in Melbourne, BTW, nice to see another Aussie on the list, if I have not already said there. :-)

    Love & Peace

  9. Ama,
    I was taken to a Spiritualist church as a kid, it wasn’t until I was in my teens that I realized I didn’t like going because it was all about channeling who knows what to get messages that never made any sense.
    My grandparents and mother got into it because of a death in the family and they just wanted comfort by getting a message from the departed soul.
    I was raised in the belief that all spirits are good and only visit you for a good reason, so from the age of 12 when I was seeing ghosts around me I thought that was fine. I thought I had a special power or something.
    And a big problem with Spiritualism too is that people (including my mother) rely and talk to ‘guides’ more than God.
    Let me tell you that my mum hasn’t exactly been led to the best actions because of these ‘guides’.
    I used to not believe in God, or Jesus, or angels or demons, or good or evil or meaning or purpose, I just believed in ‘spirits’. That’s it.
    I’ve been on my own spiritual discovery the past few years and I’ve learnt to just believe in what I’ve always known in my heart and not what others tell me.
    I believe in God and I feel I have a purpose like all people on Earth do and that makes me content with my existence.

    By the way Ama I live just out of Sydney, I have spoken to you before, about a year ago I posted here. :)

    • Drat, Gemma, I guess there’s just you and me then, because I know its been a while since I talked to the ‘other’ person .. LOL Oh where are the other interesting ozzies .. I know they exist .. I meet them in the street sometimes. :-)

      Contentment is such a gift! I thrive on my sense of Peace .. and can get a little crabby when I bounce myself out of it. And you are right, life is a huge process of learning, from one level to another, the wonder of this human world.

      Come back sooner, next time, if you find something of interest among the multitudes of subjects we all touch on. :-)

      Love & Peace

  10. That woman was deomonized and Jesus Christ pulled her out of the pit of distruction, she was deceived and for many years thought that she was right until she realized that she was being deceived. It is my sincere hope and prayer that everyone’s story ends up with a wonderful loving relationship with God through Christ Jesus. Remember, He is a jealous God when it comes to His children and He said there is no other God before Him. He is Jehovathe Heavenly Father of Jesus, and all of His children-believers. The only way to understand it is throuh the discernment of His Holy Spirit. Other than that the Gospel will be defiled and made confusing and as I have stated before Yaweh is not a God of confusion nor legalism nor pluralism. I understand if you don’t believe but that does not negate the truth and God is Truth and God is Love, and it does not negate the fact that we will all stand before Him in judgement sooner rather than later, the difference will be whether Jesus says at that judgement “he or she is Mine” or “I never knew you”, that is why He gave us Jesus so that His truth and love would be in us to. My whole point here is that this does not happen by osmosis or by epiphany, you must ask and accept His sacrifice. I amm not a religious fanatic, or someone opperating on blind faith. I know God personally through my relationship with Jesus Christ. God tells me that Jesus is the only way.

    • Hi JK

      Someone told me the other day that there is this chap, in Canada(?) I think, whom is being hailed as the ‘second coming’ – ie Jesus back in the flesh. The man himself, denies he is Jesus reincarnated.

      What is your take on this? I personally don’t think Jesus (the man) will return in the flesh. The next great teacher will be of a different ‘character’ and therefore unrecognisable as Jesus (the man) .


      • That’s more than we can say for the Queensland guy .. he’s saying he Is Jesus ..?

        Twins anyone? Afterall, God did call itself ‘we’ in the Bible? :-)

        Love & Peace

    • JK, I love what you write! :-) Really! I love a good puzzle. :-)

      What do you mean it doesn’t happen by epiphany .. look at Saul/Paul, from persecutor to persecuted in one blinding flash. (Paul was blind for 3 days afterwards, for those who don’t know). If that wasn’t an epiphany what is? You think Saul was asking God to change his mind? He had so much power as he was ..! He hated the Christians before God came and got him. Hmm.. when did Jesus stop coming into our hearts and changing us? And why pick a true villain? I haven’t read anywhere that God demanded that Saul choose to be saved .. we actually don’t know, literally, ‘what’ happened to him in that moment.

      Free dictionary:
      1. a festival
      2.A revelatory manifestation of a divine being.
      3. a. A sudden manifestation of the essence or meaning of something.
      b. A comprehension or perception of reality by means of a sudden intuitive realization

      Love & Peace

  11. I found this online and I think it does a good job of explaining what my beliefs are concerning salvation and why it is needed. I did not go to any of the links on this page, so I am not saying I agree with anything else associated with this page.


    Hope this helps answer your question.


  12. The dude in canada is not my Jesus, and does not God tell us the same thing in His Word, that many false christs would come as a sign of His return. It is deception to those who will not believe. This person that claims to be a christ is no suprise to me or other real believers because of what God has already told us. There would not only be false christ, but false gospels. He told all believers that we would be persecuted for His name sake and that satan would convince others to defile and twist the gospel so that others would be lost to satan, boy that sure is true. That is the point that I am trying to make. Without the discerning of the Holy Spirit in us, we cannot see the truth that God has for us. We do not see the warnings. So if you cannot see them the way God meant them to be understood, then you just join the other side and start talking about horus and borus and some mentaly ill and most likely possessed dude in Canada. I am not outraged about this, if there were 20 false christ standing in line behind them because what they are doing is just strengthening my faith in the real Christ because He told us that it was coming. How does a false christ convince you that Jesus Christ is not Who He says He is? Because some looney said he was Jesus, that happens every year and is nothing but deception for nonbelievers and I cannot believe as smart as you are that you would even mention false christs as some evidence the He is not real. He told me He was real and everything that He has told and promised me and all other believers, He has delivered on and more. How could I not come on here and tell others abot Him. I don’t think that you can come up with anything that God has not already told His children will happe as a sign or His second coming. You must believe in His first coming.

  13. Why don’t we ask this question, do you want to be wheat or tares? This is what Jesus said Himself comparing wheat to His believers and tares to those who care not to believe in one of His parablestgom Matthew: “30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn”. It is that simple. WIll you be tares or wheat, it is up to every individual to decide.

    • Aha .. Matthew 13:24-30 and 36-43. The wheat of the field and the weeds. I am not sure what Bible you are using, JK, but sometimes I need a dictionary. LOL

      Am I wheat or weed .. I will let God decide. He also created the weeds, a hearty and vigorous group of plants that irritates people when they take over the land the people want to use to plant their wheat .. but even wheat can poison people if it is infected by germs. And we can eat weeds .. dandelions are incredibly good for people in herbal medicine, among multitudes of other plants people consider weeds. I was only just watching a ‘wild feast’ type of cooking program on the tv last week, and they had all sorts of hedgerow salads. I think it all depends on a person’s perspective.

      Love & Peace

  14. I am a Christian first and foremost. I don’t believe in forcing people to believe what I do.I do agree with JK. You need to seek out a good man of God and get yourself a Bible. With that being said… It is up to us to divide the truth by studying our Bibles. All of what I believe has scripture to back it up. Yes I do believe the Bible to be true from beginning to end. It was written by men but inspired by God. Psalm 68:11 The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it. Revelation 1:1 ….which God gave unto him…..and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: (this is in regards to Revelation) Everyone in the world could read the same verse and everyone could get a different meaning from it. The way to study your Bible is to pray before and ask God for his help to understand it. Don’t just take one verse on a subject study out all verses to fully understand what God is trying to tell us. Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be on precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: Not all Bibles are alike either, the King James 1611 version is the closest to the original that we can read( unless you read Hebrew) it is the seventh translation. In Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Everyone knows John 3:16 but read on to 3:17…For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Also John 6:38-39 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Yes Jesus came unto his own people and they crucified him. Yes it was horrific. Yes it was in my place, your place, because we could not pay for our sins, or live under the law. Without him we would have been forever separated from God. He is a merciful God and He does forgive. Jesus has the victory, He is no longer on that cross. He sits at the right hand of His Father in heaven. I have learned so much in a short time when I actually studied and sought God. The scripture is God’s holy word, I take it 100%. God has blessed myself and my family. I wish all of you the best in studying the Bible and finding His truths.

  15. I would also like to say I agree with Ama on some points as well. That’s another beauty…He gave us free will. Just think really….would you rather have someone love you because they wanted to or because you make them. :) You all are great! Keep the discussions going. I learn something new everyday!

  16. Gemma

    1.) You are correct. The only way a person can pray to God and obtain eternal life is through Jesus Christ, and there is no other way.

    John 10:9 – I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

    John 14:6 – Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

    If you refuse to believe that Jesus is the Christ and obey him, Jesus plainly stated that you will die in your sins.

    John 8:24 – I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    Hebrews 5:9 – And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    2.)Gemma, you do not go straight to heaven when you die. You sleep in the grave until God commands you to wake up. This is called resurrection. No man goes directly to heaven after they die. The bible states that King David is still in his grave waiting for the resurrection.

    I CORINTHINIANS 15:12 –14 – Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then CHRIST is not risen; and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching in vain, and your FAITH is also vain.

    I CORINTHINIANS 15:16-17 – For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is VAIN; ye are yet in your sins.

    ACTS 24:15 – And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there be a RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, both of the just and unju ACTS 2:29 & 34 – Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.

    3.) Gemma suffering alone cannot take away the sins of mankind. You can suffer all you want because only the precious blood Jesus shed can wash away sins. The bible states without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

    Hebrews 9:22 – And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission

    Hebrews 9:14 – How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    Matthew 26:28 – For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    God manifested in the form of Jesus Christ for the specific purpose of shedding his blood that ALL men may receive eternal life.

    Only a perfect and sinless Jesus could have taken away the sins of the world and that is why he manifested in human form.

    John 1:29 – The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

    I TIMOTHTY 3:16 – And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of the angels, preached unto the gentiles, Believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    4. Believe me Gemma, no man deserves God’s love or mercy. It is only through Jesus that we obtain grace.

    Isaiah 64:6 – But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    5. Gemma, what suffering are you referring to after death? The bible teaches that dead knows nothing and there is NO consciousness in death. This simply means Gemma that when you die, you sleep until the resurrection that is when God wakes you. There is no suffering after death. The dead does not know what is going on in the land of the living.

    PSALMS 146:4 – His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

    PSALMS 88:5 – Free among the dead, LIKE THE SLAIN THAT LIE IN THE GRAVE, whom thou rememberest no more; and they are cut off from thy hands.

    PSALMS 6:5 – FOR IN DEATH THERE IS NO REMEMBRANCE OF THEE: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

    ECCLESIASTES 9:10 – Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for THERE IS NO WORK, NOR DEVICE, NOR KNOWLEDGE, NOR WISDOM, IN THE GRAVE, WHIETHER THOU GOEST.

    ECCLESIASTES 9:5-6 – For the living know that they shall die: But THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also there love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    • If we sleep in a grave until God tells us its time to wake up…what happens if we were cremated?

      • Christians are not supposed to be cremated, Diana. LOL Nor embalmed the way the Egyptians were, but preservation of the body (replacing blood with preserving fluid) is a common practise today. Maybe that will help?

        Love & Peace

        • Eh, the body is a vessel. We only really need it for a short time.

          I don’t think the manner in which it is ‘disposed’ of makes an ounce of difference.

          What about people who die in fires? Surely if the resurrection takes place they won’t be left behind (now thinking of Kirk Cameron..lol)because a horrible accident befell them.

          The spirit is the only thing that lives on. Our bodies are like disposable plates. :)

          • Exactly!

          • Right, but also a gift from God to be cherished and protected.

            Love & Peace,

          • Absolutely and we shouldn’t take our health for granted or bring illness upon ourselves by having horribly unhealthy lifestyles. We do after all have to hang out in them for a while! :)

        • I did not know that! So if a Christian does in fact get cremated…are they just SOOL?

          • No, their spirits go to God just like the rest of us. LOL

            Soil, Diana? Or what is SOOL?

            Love & Peace

          • Some would think that they are…but some thing being encased in a tomb also keeps God from collecting ya.

            I bet ya God has it all worked out and whether you’re in a vault, tomb, reduced to ashes or whatever the case the way your body is dealt with doesn’t bother God at all.

            Personally, I find the incorruptible saints to be far, far more strange of a practice that any of the rest!

          • Depends on why their bodies are incorruptible .. some of them its to do with the chemicals in the soil, and its not uncommon in certain countries .. which is where we get the legends of vampires from. The ones in glass cases .. sometimes, if the case is broken, the body just dissolves away. I am not a scientist so have no idea why they remain whole in the first place?

            Love & Peace

          • I believe the body being incorruptible ‘proves’ the sainthood of the corpse in question. But I simply do not buy into it at all. My thoughts are if God wanted to prove someone’s sainthood then their bodies would stay absolutely the same, have no need for preservation whether it’s through an airtight encasement or anything else and wouldn’t need wax coverings to keep the skin from turning dark…turning dark is the natural process and altering the process has nothing to do with God’s supernatural power.

            The information I’ve ran across points to just what you’ve said – the bodies have been mummified from their environment and some even suggest actual embalming has taken place; which is clearly against the rules! :)

            I had no idea this is where legends of vampires come from! How fascinating. I just love how knowledge from one things extends and brings new knowledge of another!

    • Nonsense – as a living being, we all have a direct link to ‘God – Creator of All’, we do not need an intermediary, however, if you choose an intermediary and because we are all connected, God knows and sees all things – even our most secret thoughts.

      • As a child I was taught two conflicting things when it came to prayer. 1, you MUST pray in the name of Jesus or your prayers are not heard or 2, God knows your intent and so long as your heart is in the right place God hears your prayers. Mind you, that is if you’ve already said the sinner’s prayer as God doesn’t listen to sinners. I think that’s rubbish – God listens to sinners too. ;)

        What I believe; despite the twisted views on religion around me is God loves us. As long as we’re communicating, our Creator isn’t bothered with how it’s done. I speak to God like a friend and I’ve no doubt I’m heard. No intercession necessary unless you prefer it that way. God pretty much says, “Eh, whatever floats your boat!” :)

        • LOL I agree. I think God is big enough to encompass how we individually prayer, and recognises himself in all our hearts. After all, he put himself there.

          Love & Peace

  17. Gemma,

    You are correct. The bible states that Jesus is the only way to God. He is in fact our mediator and intercessor before the throne of God.

    John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

    John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

    Gemma, the fact is that you do NOT go straight to heaven when you die. Both Judaism and Christianity teach that the dead sleep in the grave until the resurrection. The disciples taught that King David was still in the grave waiting for the resurrection. They were not in heaven.

    DANIEL 12:2 – And many of them that SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH shall awake to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt

    ACTS 2:29 & 34 – Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.

    Gemma unfortunately suffering does not make an atonement for sins. From the very beginning God told the Israelites that it was blood that made an atonement for sin. This is why Israel sacrificed animals. The animals made an atonement for their sins.

    Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul

    Leviticus 16:6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.

    I should also bring to your attention that after Adam and Eve SINNED, God killed the first animals and used the skins to make clothing for Adam and Eve. When God killed the first animals the blood of the animals made an atonement for their sins of Adam and Eve.

    Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

    The killing of rams, sheep and bulls was never really acceptable to God. This why is was manifested.

    Isaiah 1:11 – To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

    So the perfect and spotless Jesus, the lamb of God manifested in human form and he offered himself as the FINAL sacrifice. All the sins of the world were placed upon Jesus soldier.

    John 1:29 – The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    Jesus sacrifice is so powerful that No man needs to kill animals anymore. They only need to call on God in Jesus name and God will answer you because you asked him in Jesus name.

    Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

    Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Gemma believe me NO man deserves to be in heaven considering our filthy nature. We are not clean or pure in God’s sight. The Lord views the stars as being impure. We don’t deserve God’s love or grace because of the evil we do, but through Jesus we have redemption and victory over our sinful nature.

    Job 25:4-5 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.

    Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    Gemma, you will NOT suffer AFTER you die. The bible teaches that there is NO consciousness in death. This means that you will NOT be aware of anything. The dead knows nothing. They sleep in the dust until God call them forth to rise from the grave.

    EPHESIANS 5:14 – Wherefore he saith, AWAKE THOU THAT SLEEPEST, and ARISE FROM THE DEAD, and Christ shall give thee light.

    DANIEL 12:2 – And many of them that SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH shall awake to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    ECCLESIASTES 9:10 – Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for THERE IS NO WORK, NOR DEVICE, NOR KNOWLEDGE, NOR WISDOM, IN THE GRAVE, WHIETHER THOU GOEST.

    ECCLESIASTES 9:5-6 – For the living know that they shall die: But THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also there love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.P

    PSALMS 146:4 – His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

    PSALMS 88:5 – Free among the dead, LIKE THE SLAIN THAT LIE IN THE GRAVE, whom thou rememberest no more; and they are cut off from thy hands.

    PSALMS 6:5 – FOR IN DEATH THERE IS NO REMEMBRANCE OF THEE: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

    • We are all filthy in nature? Why? Does this tie into the concept of original sin? I don’t buy it. How can we be sinners the moment we are born into this world? How can an infant, only seconds old, be considered a sinner? What sins could they have possibly committed?

      • Original sin .. we are all tainted with it, if we are Christian. :-) Have to have something to be ‘saved’ from, Diana, or the whole premise of Salvation falls apart.

        Take the metaphysics out of religion and they had to find another explantion.

        Love & Peace

        • But what about this age of accountability … if that’s the correct term even?

          It seems sin isn’t really an issue until we can at least know we’re sinning, right?

          By the way, I really don’t think we’re responsible for the sins of others. I think we have enough to deal with when it comes to our own personal bag of sins. Where’s the fairness in such things?

          And I’m not sure we need to be saved from anything until we create problems in life.

          • The age of accountability seems to have vanished with the onset of the ME ME ME mindset.

            According to the Bible, sin is landed on us at birth, so it doesn’t matter whether we know what we did, or what Adam and Eve did, many thousands of years ago. Nor does it matter what we believe. We are responsible. The people of Israel were going to be punished until the 700th generation, which made Paul’s idea of disconnecting all the Christians from their roots in the Jewish faith, a very good one in a way. But .. doesn’t that disconnect Christianity from Adam and Eve and well? I wonder how many generations have passed since God decided on that punishment. LOL

            I think we are responsible for our every thought, feeling and action. Others might help us create them, but we have the right, and the will, to say no when something is wrong. And if we help others to ‘sin’ then we ‘are’ responsible for their actions too. Karma doesn’t separate it into ‘what you did’ and ‘what I did’. The outcome of an action has ramifications for everyone involved in that action. So if a person punishes their kids harshly and cruely, and the child grows up to do the same to their children .. the karma hits both of us (is that an interpretation of saying that God punishes people to the 3rd/4th/5th generation?) That is why forgiveness is so important. It breaks the chain that links people together through pain, fear and anger.

            Love & Peace

          • Accountability means a lot. Not minding the rules of accountability is something Pagans believe will get you into tons of trouble.

            If I talk someone into robbing a bank with me and someone gets murdered in the process am I not as responsible as the person who pulled the trigger…or even more responsible? Mind you, I’m not robbing banks with or without involving others, but you get the point.

            And Ama, it’s an excellent point that you make on parenting and just how far reaching our responsibilities go. I’ve seen children doing things taught to them by their parents (and taught to their parents by their grandparents) and no one seems to say who is truly responsible. God knows and I believe when it comes time to pay up the one who started such things will pay the most heavily – and should, in my opinion.

        • That’s my issue with Christianity. Everything leads back to us being “bad”, no matter what we do. We’re dirty, we’re sinners, we’re undeserving of God’s love. Horse puckey. That concept was created by self hating individuals so they could feel better about themselves by making sure EVERYONE was degraded, even the most innocent of humans…babies! There is nothing bad about a baby.

          • If you think about an abusive relationship and how the abuse continues we find a common factor – the abuser makes the person the are abusing feel like they deserve being treated so badly. The abused is degraded and unworthy of being treated well – no self worth at all. Sounds a bit like some people’s version of religion, doesn’t it.

          • If God directly creates the soul of man, then we have to assume that God is creating something that is inherently sinful. But, doesn’t it say somewhere in the bible if I’m not mistaken that God is incapable of creating anything that isn’t good and perfect? And how can we inherit sin? Didn’t Jesus say that sin does not originate from outside the soul but, within? So how can we have possibly inherited sin? We’re not inheriting a part of our parent’s soul..so therefore there sin is not ours. That contradiction alone is enough for me to think that the whole concept of original sin is merely something created by man.

  18. I am not trying to step on anyone’s toes here. I truly respect all religions and faiths. I understand that people’s beliefs are something held very sacred to them and to offend anyone purposely is not in my nature.

    Having stated I don’t mean to offend – I hope I don’t…

    Christianity is not the only religion that has the story of the prophecy of a savior and that savior being crucified or sacrificed to complete the prophecies foretold. (In Hinduism the entire story of Jesus is told, but under a different deities name, Krishna – including the virgin birth, wise men and all! http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-hidden-story-of-jesus/)

    Now, that does not mean I do not believe in Jesus, that he was indeed crucified or that this crucifixion was not necessary for Christians. Without it, Christianity wouldn’t even exist.

    What I personally feel is that all this WAS needed for Christianity and the followers of Christ. But other faiths also needed a similar messiah. Is one above the others? I don’t believe so. Rather, it was also needed for the faith of others, but in a way that was personal to them.

    Since my earliest thoughts of religion, I’ve known innately that what you call God, what you call your faith and how your practice or worship is only about making God personal to you. God doesn’t care what you call him or her. God isn’t so petty as us humans. God just wants us to love each other the way that he loves us.

    Just as I’ve known God ins’t concerned with our labels, I’ve also known that hell was a fabrication of mankind. Just like we tell our children Santa won’t bring what they want for Christmas/Yule (or whatever you celebrate), it’s a means to control. History pretty much proves this even. It was, after all, introduced into The Bible by changes throughout the years. When looking at the most original Bible available, you don’t find anything of what Christians think of hell today.

    It’s never made sense as to why our creator would damn us to such a horrid place for the smallest of things. Hitler gets the same punishment as someone who works on Sundays? No way. God loves us. God is love. Such a damnation would involve hate and God has nothing to do with negativity.

  19. And what about people living in remote villages who have never heard of Jesus? Never seen a Bible?

    Does their inability to learn of Christianity damn them to hell?

    They cannot accept what they do not know to exist.

    No one could possibly convince me that children (or adults) who aren’t exposed to Christianity are damned. No way.

    Besides, if you were raised Pagan, you would still be Pagan. If you were raised Hindu, you’d still be Hindu. Just like if you were raised Christian, you’re probably still Christian! Your parents passed down their beliefs to you more than likely. Those beliefs just happened to be Christian ones.

    • I’ve asked this question myself, many times. The “absolutes” of the bible leave no room for questions such as this, and it’s incredibly frustrating.

      I was raised in a Catholic household. I do not identify as Catholic, or any Christian denomination for that matter. I suppose you could say that I’m agnostic, though, I don’t question God’s existence, merely the tenets of most religions. I believe that if you dissected major religions and patched them back together to make one universal religion that things would begin to make much more sense.

      Does that make sense? LOL. I’m confusing myself. It’s hard to put my thoughts into words that are articulate enough for others’ to understand without them being in my head with me :)

      • I don’t know how I missed this Diana, sorry!

        You make perfect sense and write very articulately!

        I agree with you, the foundations of so many faiths are basically the same. If we were to slap it all together and make a universal faith sandwich we’d have some pretty simple ingredients! What would they be? I’m thinking love being the main thing, the golden rule would follow and tolerance being the third – or is it even necessary if we truly love?

        Sounds pretty fantastic, doesn’t it? And those simple things come from all faiths – that is the foundations. Now, why does religion start so many wars if so much of it is agreed upon? I think that is more a human screw-up than one ounce to do with God.

        • Hi Diana and Robyn,

          Give most religions a shake guys and the fundamentals are the same. Love one another. Honour those who deserve it. Be good to each other. Show respect. Do not harm. Be kind. How do you start a war if you practise any of them?

          No, we get lost in fear and anger and have to ‘prove’ our worth. I say, if we must, let two men, or women, meet in the middle of a very big field and hit each other until one falls down. It’s barbaric, but then so is fear and anger.

          Just my opinion,
          Love & Peace

          • We could certainly let our leaders duke it out vs. sending men and women to fight for made up causes. However, our criteria for electing these leaders would change – I want a buff guy or gal who can kick butt. LOL

          • Can we please have brains as well as cute? It takes intelligence to know when to say ‘no’.

            Love & Peace
            Ama LOL

  20. I can summarize the issues in this post fairly quickly. Why do some people and “the world” as a whole dislike Christianity and the Bible? Why do some people on the paranormal websites try to keep Christianity from being part of the conversation? One word. Demystification! Demystification of the occult. These people are addicted to the thrill of the unknown, the mystery of what we cannot see!! There is a huge television and internet audiance that is hungry for more paranormal and lots of money to be made. The Bible tells us exactly where human spirits go when people die, we know where demons come from and their origination, what they are, how much power they have, how deceptive they are. We know what aliens really are, and bigfoot, and any other entity that appears and disappears before eyewitnesses We know who their boss is and how he does what he does and he hates all people nearly as much as God loves us. We also know who wins the war, the outcome was won actually when Jesus died on a cross and was raised again from the dead by our Heavenly Father. We know, without doubt the outcome. We also know that the deceived will be speraated from God eternally whether good or bad. How do we know all this? Because God made it all, built the whole system and had man write it down in a book that tells us exactly how things work and what we need to do to be on the right side in the end, His side. Why can’t everyone get that out of the Bible? Glad you asked. If you do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, you will not understand what God has for you in His Word. If you are not a believer, satan snatches the words from you as soon as you read them. Google the parable of the sewer and you may understsnd. There is no fun in Christianity for the Paranormal Addict and “the world”, the ruler of the world, satan likes it that way. Our whole existence is about our free will that God Himself gave us. It is a battle between His love for us and our own sinfulness and carnal nature. Will we seek Him enough to find Him or will we allow our will to drag us down to the level of debaseness that the ruler of this world has made for us. There in no mystery in the occult, ghosts, ufos, aliens and the like, this stuff is not new. They are nothing more than demonic manifestations aimed at deceiving and confusing people into not seeking the truth that God gives us through a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is all there in the Bible folks. every last question is answered in one way or the other, that is no fun, no mystery. Seek the truth and not lies that people have convinced themselves of. Make your own decision, but make sure that you seek God earnestly through prayer and reading the Bible. Put as much effort into it as you did your Junior Science class and God will begin to reveal Himself to you.

    • Hi JK,

      Lovely to see you popping in for your dose of the occult. :-)

      I really wish I ‘knew’, with such certainty, what things like bigfoot, and aliens, really are. Mind you, while I’ve never seen bigfoot actually mentioned in the bible, aren’t aliens written about, as a sign of God?

      One thought though – you might consider changing the word ‘know’ to ‘believe’ .. because you don’t know, anymore than the rest of us do .. otherwise you would ‘be’ God .. because he’s the only one who truly ‘knows’ everything about this world, and all the rest of the multiverse that he created.

      Robyn, JK is one of my favourite fundamentalists around here. He always makes me think. :-)

      Love & Peace

      • Ama, I do see why he’s a favorite of yours! I’m intrigued myself!

        • Robyn, and Ama ii one of my favorite ficton blog writers. The Bible is open to interpretation, and she definately has one. I will state again, without the discernment of the Holy Spirit and/or a true seeking of His word with a pure heart, anyone like Ama can come up with whatever inertpretation that they want. There is a right interpretation and that is the one that God meant for His people, Believers. That is true Christian Faith. You hear the Gospel,The Good News of Christ, you believe the the gospel in faith, and because of that step of faith, God gives us the holy spirit. Many posters on here want the Holy Spirit first to prove to them that God is real and Jesus did what God said He would do and then maybe after that they would beieve. But this is God’s world not ours. God set the rules for us in His word the Bible, He promises us that if we seek Him we shall find Him and He has never broken that promise. You seek Him through prayer and studying the Bible with an open heart and you will find Him easily because He is waiting patiently for all of us. So others do not want to do it God’s way, so they pick a verse here and a vs there from the Bible and twist it. They bring up the crusades, who were just bad people that did bad things in the name of religion, then when nothing spiritual happens they start conjuring and calling out into the air until something answers and that something that answers, no matter how nice they seem, are all diabolical, and will do their best to destroy the victom. These are called guides, ascended masters whatever cool name that they think will work on the gullable. They make people believe that now they are powerful, know the future, read the stars when what they do not know is that right under their noses they are being deceived into an eternity totally seperated from their loving creator. The suprise does not come now, oh no, it comes when it is already too late. They don’t want any warnings, why they are clara-this and clara-that, psychic, how could a lowly demon or pesky fallen angel trick us. They see the future and auras and all sorts of things that make people swoon and jump, but they cannot see beyond their own pride that the trap is slowly being sprung right now. Spreading your own interpretation of the Bible just like it is the truth is very dangerous especially too those in need of spiritual help. See the demonic gives seekers that little crum of some sort of physical eveidence that they need. That crum is the cheese in the mouse trap. Some are arleady trapped some are close and some are just sniffing the cheese. Turn to the Author and Finisher of your faith that has stood the test of time when no other cult or pseudo religion has. There is a reason for that and it is because it is Truth, He is Truth. Ama, no more patronizing. This is real life. A question for you Ama. I think that you have written far enough on this site to be able to answer a few questions without side stepping or patronizing. What is your motivation for leading people away from a loving daily relationship with God through His Son Christ Jesus? Who is it that assures that the information about the Bible that you write here is reall correct? Your guide? Really? I am as sure of Christ as you are that lovely scarf around your neck so….Who is your God? Who pulls your strings? Who tells you that only parts of the Bible are true and other are not. I read what you write here and it has nothing to do with Yaweh. It is a occultism with a little Christianity mixed in so that you people will hopefully believe you when you dismiss it. Listen, I know that write now all this myterious stuff is fun but when it comes time to pay the piper, I would rather be standing behind the Piper than in front of Him. Get a Bible all, read it and pray that God will help you understand. I am not talking about going to church. He loves you and will meet you right where you are, He did not give us a spirit of fear and confusion, that comes from satan, God gave us a sound mind and spirit to seek Him. don’t get sidetracked on mubo jumbo.

          • I’m sorry you read me as patronising, JK. I wasn’t being, I really do enjoy what you write. But – there is a huge difference between ‘knowing’ something to be true, and ‘believing’ it is. And I don’t wear scarfs, even in winter .. the weather is working on being summer over here.

            I don’t lead people away from loving God and following Jesus Christ, I think they should. And quite truthfully, JK, I don’t have to lead people away, the christian church is doing a great job all by itself. It has this Book that has been PROVED to be edited, adapted and just place rewritten, over time, to suit the purposes of the church leaders of whatever era .. and no amount of saying it doesn’t have contradictions in it is going to change the fact that it does. You want to pretend its not so, without checking the facts, go ahead .. but don’t grouch at me about me driving people away from God when the Bible is one of the culprits as well. If people would just admit the book is history, myth and wonderful stories, with some truth in there, perhaps people would not run and hide from God.

            As for Yahweh .. you know my opinion .. two God’s in the Bible. Jesus called out to EL .. not YHWH. And on behaviour alone, the difference is striking.

            You don’t like my blog .. or blogs .. I don’t count this site as a blog, but I do have one called ‘The Mystery of God’s Books’ on WordPress that is questioning the Bible .. if that is what you are talking about .. don’t read it. Perhaps the truth is making you feel very uncomfortable.

            BTW, I never side step questions, and only the reader can interpret what I say as patronizing, from their own mindset. I don’t write to do harm, just express my opinion, but I can’t help other people’s interpretations.

            I am sorry you decided to be offended by my comment, but you are on a site that is dedicated to subjects that your church tells you to stay away from .. so what are you doing here? Most people who come here have given up on God, usually because the church won’t help them with their paranormal problems .. and where is the good (or God) in that?

            And I thought you were a good Christian, what’s this about not going to church? Mind you, Jesus never had a ‘church’ .. that came later .. of necessity, sadly.

            Yes, God gave us both a sound mind and spirit to seek Him .. you do it your way, and I do it mine. Who knows, we might BOTH be right.

            Love & Peace
            p.s. I’ll stand in front of God anytime. I will love the smile on his face when he sees me .. again.

          • JK, do you follow each thing in The Bible? Each law?

            I doubt it. And I’m not being disrespectful to you.

            However, I have to assume you do not because if you did you would either be in prison or one hell of an evader of justice. Today, we don’t kill people who disagree with us, we don’t kill our children for not behaving, we don’t marry our brother’s wife if he dies, we don’t do a lot of things that The Bible instructs us to do and thank goodness we don’t!

            And so when you say that we take one scripture, but not the other I think it’s fair to assume that’s necessary.

            To be Christian has NOTHING to do with anything but the teachings of Jesus Christ. I’m sorry but the God of The Bible – specifically The Old Testament – and Jesus Christ are two very, very different beings. One was for love and peace and the other was for revenge and hatred for anyone the tiniest bit out of line.

            When you say, “don’t get sidetracked on mumbo jumbo” I hear “Sheepishly follow…”

            I’ve read The Bible. I was raised in a very strict Pentecostal church. I don’t disagree with a lot of those teachings, but can’t agree with all either. Sometimes we just need to seek God and think for ourselves.

            You are absolutely right to say God gave us a sound mind…

            Please make sure YOU are thinking for YOU and not allowing someone behind a pulpit or anyone else think for you.


    • What does the bible tells us where human spirits go when people die? Where do demons originate from? What they are, how much power they have, how deceptive they are? I’m 100% sure the answer you gave me will be complete different than what another “Christian” would answer. That’s my problem with Christianity. It’s not unified in believes and teachings, but only under persecution of others and the pursuit of wealth. Even though I don’t believe in many of the practices here, people here display more of a Christian quality from the bible days, than “Christians” of today do.
      If its acts only, nobody would make it to heaven. If that’s where human were destine to be. If its worship that will give you the golden ticket, for sure no Christian would make it to heaven. God has his scroll of life, with names he sees fit to be written down into it. Everybody is accountable for their actions. If you know the teaches, claim to follow Christ, but obey only to ones conveniences… have mercy on you. Those that never got to know God; there is a reason why the bible says God could read the heart.

      • Morning DK aka S*D. (LOL)

        If God reads the heart of every person, which I believe ‘he’ does, then why do we have to take Christianity to all the nations? And what do we do about the zeal of the folk who use force (believe or die) to convert people? What about the half converted, who add Christian symbols to their pagan worship? Is God going to ignore them, even if their heart is pure, because of their practises? Sigh. I agree, if it acts then most people are going to hell. I doubt God will find even 144,000 in our 7 billion plus population .. but it would interesting to know how many were from ‘other’ belief groups.

        Since we’ll all be around to find out .. I suggest we have a picnic. :-) Do you think God will allow one final act of joy before he condemns us for eternity? So much sadness in the world, so much fear, and why .. because we do not know ourselves, let alone know ‘God’, no matter what name we call IT.

        Love & Peace

        • Hola, Ama
          Matthew 25:14 says “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (NIV)” Christianity, I believe is a counterfeit of want it once was. What should be taken and shared, not by force but out of love is Christ’s teaching. Jesus never forced his teaching on anyone, but through illustrations and parables reasons with his students. Devoting one’s life to God is a personal decision, and cannot be forced upon. God wants us to serve him unconditional, out of our love for him.
          In the bible, Israel was supposed to been God’s chosen people. They were supposed to show, living under God’s guidance was the best way. While Solomon was reigning under God’s guidance, his kingdom experience peace and prosperity. There is proof God knows what’s best for us.
          Going back to Israel though, the example of the golden calf shows he doesn’t want any other practices contaminating his pure worship. I forget the number of people who died in that example, but the death toll was high. Not to offend anybody, but halfhearted devotion isn’t going to cut it.
          I believe those who never got to gain a relationship with God, not by their own choice but due to tradition, culture, unforeseen circumstances. God will take that into consideration. God is not unjust, but does everything out of love.

          • Hi DK,

            Good quote. Great to know we don’t have to worry about the ‘end’ anytime soon, given that Christianity has not been spread everywhere yet. As long as there’s an outpost where it has not been ‘heard’ we will all be safe from damnation. And there are such places. :-)

            I agree that Christianity is not what it could have been, given that there were so many versions of it during its developing years. We got the one the charismatic ‘forceful’ types pushed onto us, using power and money. No wonder the western society is so hung up on Mannon rather than God. Just look at ‘Christmas’ .. a giant shopping spree.

            Devoting one’s life to God is a calling that is very hard to be half-hearted about .. and we can all get so intense, and so ‘sure’ that our way is the ‘only’ way, but IMO God’s bigger than me, or you, or the rest of the people in the world, and the shallowness of our beliefs .. and they are shallow. Oh, we think they have great depth, but we can suddenly learn more, and its in the learning that we begin to see the limitations within our belief structure. And so our minds begin to struggle with what is right and what is wrong with ‘what we ‘think’ we know’. I’ve seen people retreat into religion, become fundamentalist with closed minds, only to be brought low by something that happens that breaks their hearts and spirits, and then they dump ‘God’. I could understand if they dumped religion, but to dump God because of something that doesn’t fit into the Bible?? Or worse, they suddenly start following strange paths, that lead them into trouble, like deciding ‘demons’ are friendly? Or joining some sect or other, and ending up dead because of it? I know God will sort it out when they get Home, but why couldn’t we sort it out before they left?

            The number of people who died because of the golden calf? No one that I can see. Exodus 32:14. Moses was a good guy, but, sadly, not good enough for God? The OT God was such a contradiction.

            I’m glad you think God is considerate too. Personally I think he’ll consider us all worth saving as long as we try to be good to each other – and for those who can’t, or won’t, we have karma. That’s God’s invention too .. a chance to get life right, even if it takes a time or too. :-)

            Love & Peace

      • Are you saying that you are a Christian and that you are a student of God’s Word and you have not read where demons come from, nor where we go when we die, good and bad then my friend you are either not a student of the Bible abd you must not read it much because this is foundational information in the Bible.

        • What does the bible tells us where human spirits go when people die?
          Answer: When we die, we return to the earth. Conscience of nothing. We were made to be a soul, not given one. We do not go to heaven or hell.
          1 Cor. 15:45/ Ec 9:5,10/ Ps146: 3,4/ Ps 115:17
          (Probably different from what you believe, right)

          Where do demons originate from?
          Ans: Demons are rebellious Angels
          1 pet 3:19,20/ Jude 6
          (That’s understood by all, I think)

          What they are, how much power they have, how deceptive they are?
          Ans: As fallen Angels, they powerful creatures that oppress mankind.
          Luke 8: 27-29/ Rev. 16 : 13-14

          I think I have an understanding of basic Bible principles.

          Let me ask you something, do you pray to a cross?
          If so, that idolatry (Ex. 20:4).

          Do you believe in the trinity?
          God the father, one person, greatest in universe.
          Mr 10: 18/ Rom. 3: 29-30
          How about the rapture, you believe in that? The Bible doesn’t teach anything about the rapture.
          There’s so much Christians can’t agree on, but what does the bible say? I’ve quoted scriptures with my answers.

    • I’m only going to give a brief comment here because it’s been a truly exhausting day and I’ve not got the energy to do much more. I’ll ask in advance for you to forgive my not addressing everything.

      JK, God isn’t a new concept. God has always been. God will always be. God was before Christianity. Was God any less prior to this fairly new religion? I say new because, well, it is when looking at the age of humanity.

      JK, The Bible in my humble opinion is not completely false, but it is also no where near 100% accurate. How old is the Earth? The Bible has a completely different answer than any real scientist or evidence. JK, if your children (assuming you have children) misbehave do you take them to the elders of your village to execute? I’m not being condescending here. I’m trying to make a point. Men (and to be fair women too!) are not perfect. Humans wrote The Bible. And it wasn’t even written down for a very long time. Rather, it was stories carried from one place to the other and shared among people. It reminds me of a game we played in elementary school – Chinese telephone. Even the most factual of stories will change once it’s passed from person to person — unintentional probably, but it happens.

      My beliefs are as valid as yours and yours are as valid as mine. They are personal to us both. Are either of us wrong? I don’t think so, but then I don’t think there is a wrong or right answer.

      I’ll risk sounding rude this once – not all people believe in The Bible. Some don’t even know it exists. A book is not the way to God. Especially considering it isn’t complete and has been tampered with so many, many times. Look at the oldest Bible we have http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/. Do you know scripture was LITERALLY marked out and changed? Have a look for yourself.

      • Aha .. I had forgotten that link. Thank you Robyn.

        Love & Peace

        • Brilliant to look at this Holy text. I have had a fantastic time studying it and continue to. I would so love to see it in person!

          • I just found out there’s a copy of the book here in Oz .. and only a few hours drive away. We shall be visiting. :-)

            Love & Peace

      • Hello Robyn,
        It’s pretty funny that your name is Robyn, and I’m the D4rk kn19h7 (Dark knight aka Batman). We are Batman & Robin. Okay maybe only funny to me. I’ve been visiting this site for maybe 4-5 months. There are individual who agree with you, “the bible isn’t 100% accurate.” Then I think, “Well …. How do you know what to believe and what not to believe?” True the bible is written by man, but isn’t it inspired of God, the almighty?
        I had an office job years ago where some of my responsibilities were to send out letters, type up memos and organize files and receipts. So the few memos I sent out, my manager informed me to write about this, this, & that. So I typed it out, showed him the final draft and sent it out.
        In that situation, it’s true that I penned the memo, but whose thoughts was it? Even after I was finish, my manager had the final say on whether it was good to go, or needs changes. Same could be said about the author of the Bible. It is God’s thoughts, not men. Also I believe the bible is scientifically accurate. It spoke of the earth being round when those that were known as the intellectual were teaching it was flat. Also spoke of hygiene and importance of being clean, not only for the sake of worship but for health.
        I do believe many churches teach, and interpret scriptures to their own inclination. The Bible, the idea of the scripture as a whole cannot be altered. Saying that, is saying we as humans can alter God’s purpose. We can prevent the Almighty God from accomplishing his goal.
        What’s that saying, “anything easily attainable, isn’t worth having.” There are same bible translations that have been altered when translated, they why we must constantly consider the bible daily, Cross examine different translations. It’s not easy and requires work. Through the help of prayer and Holy Spirit, you’ll find what you’re looking for.

        • It’s been incredibly hectic in my home lately – I’m sorry that I am missing posts!

          I don’t know how I missed yours DK!

          LOL@ Batman & Robin. That is hilarious. I can’t believe I never thought of it myself! lol

          I think it is possible for God to have inspired people to write The Bible, but I do not believe it is without them screwing up at least some minor things. And I don’t believe all of it was inspirational for The Creator.

          Why? Well, because there are books that never made it to the general public. Someone stepped in and said that for whatever reason we didn’t need those. Were they not inspired by God as well? And while I understand the similarities you were stating between the memos you sent out and how they were improved to that of God approving The Biblical scriptures I still have to say why would God have not intervened with the people who stopped the other gospels from circulating?

          We can easily use freewill as an excuse for why this is allowed, but freewill goes in both directions – those who wrote The Bible had the freewill to interpret things as they saw fit and those who kept holy texts out of The Bible had the freewill to decide what is out there for devotees to read and what is not.

      • I have study them and , Oh Boy, you all most had me when ypou said your humble opinionion. Because it is our humble opinion that sends us to hell. I am not talking History here. I am talking your God and creator. When I read the info from that particular codex it reafirms my faith. There has been nothing discovered from a Biblical perspective that has done anythong different. The Dead Sea Scrolls all of them have reafirmed what God’s Word already says. You are trying to use information that you evidently have some literary info on but know spiritual framework to comment on it. See you have missed the point, the whole point and that is you will understand none of it, it reads as another story if you are looking from it from a literary perspective. If yo want to see the historical Jesus you can find Him and He is the same Jesus that will send His Holy spirit to you to save your hide. You have a choice and it is not too late to change your mind. Please, please hear this if nothing else, it is not what you are reading it is what is influencing you while you read it. No ones mind is lead by their own power in the spiritual. Your thinking is led either by the Holy Spirit or just some spirit or demon. If you believe that the spirit world is around you how can you not believe that these spiritual forces have no effect on your thinking. I will ask you the same question as I did Ama. Where is your hope, in what or who do you place your hopein. Where is your eternal soul spending eternity, reincarnating as a bowl of soup, come on.

        • That wasn’t the question you asked me, JK. LOL

          Where is my hope … my focus is on God, my future and my certainty is based in God, and the gift Jesus Christ gave us in dying. Freedom to choose, JK. Freedom to get it right, and get it wrong – because ‘God’ has not tormented anyone since Jesus came.

          Love & Peace

          • Ama,
            heres the scripture i was talking about, refering to those who died because of worshiping the golden calf.
            Exodus 32:
            25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the LORD, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him. 27 Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

          • Eek, I stand (sit) corrected, DK. It seems ‘about 3000 fell that day’.

            Dear God, it seems their god had decided that killing their loved ones was a good way to ordain themselves into ‘its’ service. (Exodus 33:29) I wonder what sort of blessing it brought them, to turn themselves into murderers?

            Love & Peace

          • HI Ama

            I personally think Moses was not so hot on distinguishing between spirit. One minute he was taking instrustion from an Angel of the Lord (some say Michael) and the next, taking instructions from something pretending to be an Angel of the Lord.
            Never once in the OT is it mentioned how to test the spirits to make sure they are of God (to my knowledge, anyway.)

            Thing is, Moses was brought up in an environment where they had many gods – so what training had he received to know who to trust from the spirit realm??


          • Can’t find anything in the OT on the subject, AJ. And given that he went back up the ‘hill’ in a right royal temper, who knows what sort of entity he actually met at the top. We tend to attract negativity to us when we are very cranky.

            But, given that he would have had training of some sort .. who knows, they could have seen demons as helpful in the ancient egyptian society as well? They had a few ‘God’s that were more ‘demonic’ that ‘godly’ in my estimation.

            Love & Peace

          • I think we can be certain that he was raised to believe in whatever it was that the Pharaoh believed and/or wanted him too. My guess would be that the idea of one solitary God was not in his way of thinking. When many think of Moses they imagine a Holy man close to God in sandals and humble robes… well that doesnt sound like the heir to the Pharaoh to me :)

          • I agree, CT. Mind you, all that roaming about in the desert will ruin your clothes pretty fast. I used to live inside the edge of one. The ‘sand’ was orange. LOL

            Love & Peace

        • “I am talking your God and creator”

          As curious statement, JK. Is Robyn’s God different from yours??

          “Why do some people and “the world” as a whole dislike Christianity and the Bible?”

          That should read:

          Christianity OR the Bible.

          I love the Bible. I just don’t like Christianity. It’s a falsehood.


          • Your statement about Moses is a thought I’ve had many times myself. It seems he was guided by something far less pure than God. In fact, a lot of ugliness was thrown into place once Moses took the actions he did. Had he thought things out a bit more or had he had the right motives even (was he power hunger or did it all go to his head?) would things have been better later on? I think so.

            Now, all that is just speculation and ideas I toss about…I could be way off.

            But when I think on these things and seek answers so that I can know the truth I think it’s possible that The Divine leads me to ask the right questions and “feel” the correct answers in order for me to gain the knowledge I need.

          • Moses was raised as a “son” of the Pharaoh and as such he would have been taught heavily about all the occult and mysteries and science of the time. Moses was intended to replace the Pharaoh at some point. If Moses was a real person he was not an ignorant “country bumpkin” like he is portrayed on the big screen.

          • AJ – God is God. There is no replacement, there is no other. There is but ONE God and JK is right, God and Creator is the ONE. BUT I bet we view what the ONE is differently…lol.

            And that’s so very much ok. It’s meant to be this way – we’re all do very different people. God becomes personal to us in the way we need him or her to.

            *YES JK – I said him or her ;) *

            If a person can personalize God in the image of The Moon (or Ganesh or a book or a cross or the Blessed Saint who suffered on that cross) – God doesn’t mind. God loves us and whatever can create a strong, meaningful relationship between him and us is perfection to him.

        • One point from my yesterday here, JK. You think I don’t have a mind of my own, or Robyn doesn’t, or AJ, or CareTaker? Either we think via the Holy Spirit, or its a demon or spirit? I see. Obviously you think you are led by the HS. Personally, I think God created me to be able to think for myself, and not need to be led around by the nose. And none of my angels have ever tried to do it .. although plenty of humans have tried to tell me – not just ‘what to think’ but ‘how to think it’.

          1 Kings 3:9-12 You’ll know this quote. I asked God for it a very long time ago, and I’ve been learning ever since. “Give your servant therefore an understanding mind …”

          Solomon’s God might have said he’d be the only one to have it, but then I follow EL, and his ‘son’. :-)

          Love & Peace

  21. God does not require people to convert others to some supreme religious belief…God is powerful enough to do what needs to be done. He does not need us … we need him.

    Let us not forget God can do his own work. This is why I never try to convince or convert anyone. Who am I to take on the role of The Creator?

    • Nicely said. All I want to do is discuss the various concepts and ideas offered by the bible, even when they puzzle or horrify me. LOL I am fascinated by the Book, and God. :-)

      Love & Peace

      • The Bible is fascinating – I’ve read it from cover to cover and studied it intensely. My favorite scripture is found in Matthew 6:33 “But seek ye first the kingdom of God and all his righteousness and all these other things shall be added unto you.”

        I have went back to that scripture so many times. To me, it means once you get your relationship with God as it should be, you can expect things to start happening for you….I’m sure others would say it meant something different to them — which is awesome that we can have one message and we take what we need from it. :)

        I have to admit though – The Exorcist (my favorite movie, btw…lol) is far, far less scary to me that The Bible. It terrifies me…has me looking over my shoulder and in the shadows for something nasty to pop out! Always has!

        • I can’t watch movies like that, Robyn. I’m taught ‘what the eyes can perceive, the mind can create’ .. and demons tend to steal images from people’s minds and hand it back to them with extra terror. Give me fairytales .. they are scary enough these days. LOL Mind you I just bought 10 DVD’s for xmas. (Got the Lovely Bones, AJ).

          My favourite scripture is: Love one another as I have loved you. John 13:34-35.

          Love & Peace

          • I’m sure films can definitely give us a perception of demons and other bad things – but I’ve been in love with horror flicks forever! lol I can’t give them up.


            You’re right about fairytales – some of them are TERRIFYING …especially the originals! My mom used to tell us some of the creepiest fairytales in existence. I thought she’d made them up, but turns out her mother told her and her mother told her and so on. I have found some in books or online. One was called, “One Eye, Two Eyes and Three Eyes”. It’s about three sisters and their issues…in fact a couple was about sisters and bad things that happened to them! :D

    • Excellent post, Robyn.


  22. D4RK KN19H7, I know you directed the scriptures to Ama, but when I read what you’d written I thought to myself, “God is love – God would NOT command people to do such things.”

    Fundamentalist Christians and just plain every day Christians often believe that things are either of God or Satan. I say in the deepest part of my heart, this could not be of God.

    Yes, I know it came from The Bible. I’ve read it before just reading it now, but this event (assuming it’s a real event and not a sort of story or parable) would, IMHO, be considered evil and not good.

    Perhaps confusion in who or what was telling those people to behave in such a way was the problem?

    • Definitely confusion, Robyn. The God of the OT is not a nice being. That ‘theory’ is the focus of my lifework right now – though its on hold until after xmas given how busy we are right now. Compare Job’s God to Jesus’ God and note the differences. Sheesh. LOL

      Love & Peace

      • Two different entities for sure! It makes one wonder if the God of the OT may have not been God at all – rather a very convincing people making things up as they’d like it to be or maybe a darker force behind it all.

        The God I know is the God of love. I don’t care to worship the other.

        • Now there’s the thought, and I have my ideas ..

          The God I know created us to grow and learn, and when we gave that away, it gave us its own ability to create ‘personified as its son’, to give it back.


          Love & Peace

    • Robyn,
      In order for you to understand the reason of God’s action, you would need to be perfect.
      Would you agree we as humans are in state of imperfection due to sin?
      Would you agree that human’s; in all we have accomplished still only use 10% of our brain (scientific fact).

      Could you say you’re in the same level of intelligent and wisdom as God? Is anybody?

      We can’t fully understand anything God does without him explaining to us. Which he does in the bible.
      The bible displays many of God’s attributes, which is love, wisdom, justice, and power. 1 john 4:8/ job 12:13/ Deu 32:4/ Job 37:23

      Here’s a question for you, why would God need to have justice?
      If God has no reason to be just and all are automatically forgiven, wouldn’t he be only the God of Love?

      Here is a scenario, have you ever seen the movie “The Good Son.” The movie focuses on two boys, one who is the evil and one obviously good. In the end, the mother is basically in a situation where she had to choose which one will live and which one will die. Couldn’t save both. What would you do? It a decision that’s hard to make, hopefully nobody has to make.
      I understand that the situation that’s placed before god isn’t the same exact thing. Remember in the beginning of the bible, God made the Garden of Eden for our enjoyment. Due to Adam & eve disobedience we lost out on perfect life forever. Many people today and throughout time have followed in their footsteps. After knowing the truth that the bible teaches, still people stubbornly resist god’s headship and right to rule. Coming to the conclusion that they don’t need God in their life to live a comfortable and prospective life.
      My point in all this is that those who blatantly refuse god and his ruler ship, they will be punish. When a child acts up, they get punished right. When we are punished by God though, its death. (I don’t believe in hell, and place of fire and torture.)Because of that, people turn away from the bible, turn away from God?
      Everybody forgets who created them. Who do we belong to? Who do you belong to? I belong to God, I’m his property. That fact that I’m breathing today and have a beautiful wife to go home too, I’m thankful for that. I don’t complain that I don’t have a huge house, billions of dollars, etc.
      I think that’s what a lot of people forget. We have this attitude that we are entitled to things, life. We are worthless in comparison to God, to the angels. Yet he loves us. Proof? Look at the mountains early in the morning or the way the trees and leafs look during fall season. How about the stars and night. The beauty of the view can’t be compared to anything that man can make. Then the most important act of love at john 3:16 “God loved the world so very, very much that he gave his only Son. Because he did that, everyone who believes in him will not lose his life, but will live forever.” Understand that when it says “believe”, the Webster dictionary gives the definition: to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something. Believe is a strong word when understanding its meaning. So we don’t automatically get the gift of eternally life. Like your driver’s licenses, it’s a privileged not a right. Believe or faith moves us to action. There’s a scripture faith without works are dead. It’s a combination of both that is required in that scripture.
      How can we call God cruel and hard-hearten. He’s given us warning, after warning. Given us different examples and situations we can learn from and follow. We don’t even deserve that, but out of love he provides. The act of kill those 3,000 people were commission with God’s approval. Why? To protect everybody else. Idol worship was prohibited by God and the influence was too dangerous to allow within the nation of Israel. Like their parents before them (Adam & Eve) they deliberately disobeyed God. I think it was worst due to the fact that they were eyewitness to the miracles performed by Moses given by God. Their faith so be as strongest in that case.

      • Ok, my turn to cross-post. :-)

        Ah yes, the old ‘God is inscrutible’ ploy. :-) Explains everything while actually saying nothing. And ‘sin’ is a concept that is very adaptable. One man’s sin is another man’s ‘perfectly acceptable behaviour’ .. when is murderer not murderer? And just think of incest in the OT .. good for the first 1500 years, banned after that. What happened? God change his mind. In the meantime, Lot and various others who were condemned to Sheol (no hell or heaven in those days), got hauled out and sent to hell with the coming of the NT? I prefer the concept of karma myself.

        Don’t get me started on Job. I have NO idea how that book got into the Christian bible. The God there is a nasty piece of work.

        God didn’t make the garden of Eden for human enjoyment, DK. God made the garden and then put people in it. He made it for ‘his’ enjoyment. He made us for his enjoyment, and gave us the free will to eat the ‘apple’ LOL. We took the story, twisted it in knots and came out looking like victims of our own inability to say ‘sorry I stuffed up’. God is not a monster. If the ‘children’ had said ‘sorry dad’ instead of hiding in a bush in fear of punishment, I wonder how it would have ended? We only had knowledge, we didn’t have eternal life then ..

        And killing almost 3000 people because they worshipped some other God than the jealous one .. is very cruel. The murderers were then ‘ordained’ (became priests of their God) by doing it. What sort of lesson is that for people who read the bible. God will approve murderer as long as you are doing it in his name?

        What sort of God approves murder, incest, destroys towns, sends evil angels to torment people, treats Job, ‘an upright and God fearing person’, like a toy, after killing all his children, most of his servants and all of his livestock .. come on now. How twisted is that? I’m very glad Jesus came with is ‘new Way’. The old way would have had us all in hell by now.

        Love & Peace

        • I’m starting a church and you’re giving that sermon – I won’t take no for an answer! :D

          • I’d be delighted. This stuff is fascinating. LOL

            Love & Peace

      • I understand what you’re saying D4RK KN19H7 and get that our views of God are different ones. That’s perfectly ok. We’re two different people with different life and spiritual experiences – of course we think differently.

        I have studied The Bible. I’m familiar with all that you say from a scriptural standpoint. What I don’t understand is the picking and choosing of scripture. Lukewarm, according to scripture, is unacceptable. And so, you do ALL God commands or none…according to scripture, that is. And just like most other Christians, I’m sure you’re not out creating acts of genocide or having your children killed.

        When I read all the hate that I have in The Bible I see where certain fundamentalist get their “license” to behave as they do….Me, being the activist I am, have stood toe to toe with such people – Westboro Baptist and such…It is their view that our (the public) disobeying God is why bad things happen — This is why they hold signs that say, “Thank God For Dead Soldiers” or “God Hates Fags” in fact, their website is godhatesfags.com. THAT fundamentalist view is what turn people from Christianity.

        It has occurred to me that the God of the Old Testament was not God at all.

        And I disagree that we have to be perfect to understand God. I completely disagree. In fact, I think it’s all really simple and ANYONE can understand the nature of God.

        I cannot just believe something that I do not feel is accurate or morally correct. We’re all born with this little voice – our conscience – that tells us these things. And mine tells me that hate is not right, murder is not right and that mankind looks for an excuse to fight among their neighbors or even family and that God doesn’t give them the go ahead – no, they twist religion until it fits their needs. It’s only when they convince themselves that God wants them to do these things that they can shut the voice of the conscience up.

        I don’t believe in hell either. I think it was some made up fantasy to control the masses. But why do you not believe in hell? The God you speak of would certainly seem to be the sort to cast people into a lake of fire with a “that’s what you get…” attitude.

        Adam & Eve in the garden – the God you worship would be the type of kick them out and punish them severely vs. not allowing anyone else in? The garden either never existed or the story is lacking …. In all honesty, I think it is a fairy tale – the garden I mean….a means to teach us what creation is, what it came from and who to fear. It even explains why men dominate over women and in a couple months why I am deserving of the pains of childbirth vs. my husband. Just like mythology or any other story – people have needed it to answer their questions of why.

  23. Ama,
    The goal was to “cut out the cancer before it spreads.” Moses asked Israel, “Whoever is with the Lord come with me.” So they had a choice to get forgiveness but decline. Even though God is love, he also represents justice. Israel knew that idolatry worship was prohibited. God needs to follow his own law he establishes. So if he were to allow them to live, it should everybody else that we can sin against God and get away with it. I don’t know if that made sense, sometimes I horrible at explain things.

    • You explained very well, DK, but I have another interpretation.

      First question – what cancer? And what happened to allowing people to learn from their mistakes and become better people? Where is the Love in this action .. if the OT God was Jesus’ father? Where is the forgiveness? And asking someone ‘whoever is with the Lord come to me’ is not telling them they messed up, if you take it literally .. so it could be interpreted that the Lord’s troupes then killed all those who didn’t follow Moses’ God .. not because of what they were doing, but because they were not loyal to the jealous God. Moses’ followers were acting exactly the same way as the others when they were called out of the crowd. The difference was – they decided to follow Jehovah, or was it Moses, in that moment.

      Love & Peace

      • and were not those that they killed their own cousins and brothers and sisters basically?

        • Yep. And the ‘followers’ of Jehovah were blessed (‘ordained’ in my bible) for the murderers.

          Lovely book, great history lesson. Kill your family if they don’t follow ‘your’ God. (sigh)

          Love & Peace

          • My question is with a God directing people in such a way, why on earth would we ever have any problems with terrorists? They are; after all, behaving in this exact same way.

            Most Christians would quickly point out that they’re not following the ‘true’ God…but wait, isn’t this the same God?

            Hate has nothing to do with God. Freewill that we’ve been given by our creator sometimes end up with us causing messes on our own or being drawn into other people’s messes…but…God is just like a parent in the sense of allowing us to make our own mistakes and then learning from them – hopefully we learn. God does not have a hit list he hands out to his thugs. That mob mentality has nothing to do with God.

          • Murder .. murderer .. murder .. murderer .. one is the action, and the other is the person doing the action. My spelling needs work today. Sorry guys.

            Love & Peace

          • I agree, Robyn. Mob rule is not ‘God’ rule. People are perfectly capable of destroying themselves, and each other, without any help from God .. but oh, doesn’t it make a great excuse for the behaviour? God told me to do it.

            If we say it out loud these days, we get locked away in a paddded room .. with only plastic spoons. If someone says it to me, I ask ‘which God’? LOL

            And out there, in silly season land, people are losing their tempers when they can’t buy what they want for themselves, or others, for xmas while maxing out their credit cards. Great way to celebrate Jesus’ possible birth .. ok, really unlikely, but hey .. they had to pick ‘some’ day, so why not steal one that seemed appropriate “sun return”. It would be nice to burn a Yule log, but not until the 22nd June .. its 36C out there today. Too hot for me!

            Love & Peace

          • I think God is giving the credit for destruction that the made-up Satan (made up in my opinion)should be royally pissed about! Isn’t all that ‘his’ end of the business??

      • I get that you believe there are two different Gods in the bible. Jehovah and El. Jehovah’s name is almost mention in the greek scripture. From my understanding isn’t El a title dicpicting the superior God. As the greek scriptures refer to jesus, peter and Satan as god’s also.

        • El is also in the old Testament, but not much. I have been looking. But for me, DK, EL is who Jesus calls out to from the cross when he was dying. And Jesus said his ‘way’ was a new Way. It’s up to us to interpret it how we want to.

          Love & Peace

          • If you look up El (deity) on wikipedia it has this information to offer under the hebrew sub-heading : The Hebrew form (אל) appears in Latin letters in Standard Hebrew transcription as El and in Tiberian Hebrew transcription as ʾĒl.

            El is a generic word for god that could be used for any god including Baal, Moloch,[11] or Yahweh.

            In the Tanakh, ’elōhîm is the normal word for a god or the great god (or gods, given that the ‘im’ suffix makes a word plural in Hebrew). But the form ’ēl also appears, mostly in poetic passages and in the patriarchal narratives attributed to the P source. It occurs 217 times in the Masoretic text: 73 times in the Psalms and 55 times in the Book of Job, and otherwise mostly in poetic passages or passages written in elevated prose. It occasionally appears with the definite article as hā’Ēl ‘the God’ (for example in 2 Samuel 22.31,33–48).

            There are also places where ’ēl specifically refers to a foreign god as in Psalms 44.20;81.9 (Hebrew 44.21;81.10), in Deuteronomy 32.12 and in Malachi 2.11.

            The theological position of the Tanakh is that the names Ēl and ’Ĕlōhîm, when used in the singular to mean the supreme and active ‘God’, refer to the same being as does the name, Yahweh. All three refer to the one supreme god who is the god of Israel, beside whom other gods are supposed to be either non-existent or insignificant. Whether this was a longstanding belief or a relatively new one has long been the subject of inconclusive scholarly debate about the prehistory of the sources of the Tanakh and about the prehistory of Israelite religion. In the P strand, YHVH says in Exodus 6.2–3:

            I revealed myself to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as Ēl Shaddāi, but was not known to them by my name, Yahweh.

            This suggests the identity of Yahweh with either Ēl, in his aspect of Shaddāi, or with a god called Shaddāi.[citation needed] Also suggested is that the name Yahweh is a more recent revelation.[citation needed] Before El’s revelation with the name of Yahweh, It is said in Gen 14:18-20 that Abraham accepted the blessing of El, when Melchizedek, the king of Salem and high priest of its deity El Elyon.[12] One scholarly position is that the identification of Yahweh with Ēl is late, that Yahweh was earlier thought of as only one of many gods, and not normally identified with Ēl. In some places, especially in Psalm 29, Yahweh is clearly envisioned as a storm god, something not true of Ēl so far as we know (though true of his son, Ba’al/Hadad). (Noted Parallel: El is derived from Sumerian Enlil, God of Wind.[13]) It is Yahweh who fights Leviathan in Isaiah 27.1; Psalm 74.14; Job 3.8 & 40.25/41.1, a deed attributed both to Ba’al/Hadad and ‘Anat in the Ugaritic texts, but not to Ēl. Such mythological motifs are variously seen as late survivals from a period when Yahweh held a place in theology comparable to that of Hadad at Ugarit; or as late henotheistic/monotheistic applications to Yahweh of deeds more commonly attributed to Hadad; or simply as examples of eclectic application of the same motifs and imagery to various different gods. Similarly, it is argued inconclusively whether Ēl Shaddāi, Ēl ‘Ôlām, Ēl ‘Elyôn, and so forth, were originally understood as separate divinities. Albrecht Alt presented his theories on the original differences of such gods in Der Gott der Väter in 1929. But others have argued that from patriarchal times these different names were indeed generally understood to refer to the same single great god, Ēl. This is the position of Frank Moore Cross (1973). What is certain is that the form ’ēl does appear in Israelite names from every period including the name Yiśrā’ēl (‘Israel’), meaning ‘ēl strives’ or ‘struggled with él’.

            If you want to continue the read, look it up on wikipedia.

          • I guess it comes down to what you want to believe, DK. I believe that Jesus knew exactly to whom he was calling, in the moment of supreme crisis. Yes, being human, he might just have been saying ‘dad’, but .. maybe not. We don’t actually know how much of the process he was about to go through he understood. I would think, given that he knew it was important, he would have used the true name of his God, rather than just a ‘general’ name. And later, given the need of the Jewish people, and the Christians, to have the god of war as their god, they decided to turn EL into a common name, rather than dealing with the fact that Jesus never preached war, death or violence .. in an society stifled by oppression. We can’t know for sure. We can only observe Jesus words, and his behaviour, and everything he taught about ‘his’ God.

            Love & Peace

  24. Caretaker:
    You couldn’t be more correct. He is often shown in the light of some ignorant know-nothing – like he’d just crawled from beneath a rock.

    Considering he was likely educated in all things supernatural, who knows where his influences came from. Perhaps it was more to do with political thinking above all else though?

    • I feel sure that Moses knew as much as, or more, about the “arts” than those magicians who duplicated his miracles in front of the Pharaoh. I am also sure that he was very well educated in science, math, politics etc. If a person researches to find how a Pharaoh raised a son and what was expected of him I doubt they would be able to imagine Moses as being ignorant or inept. I think that idea comes not from the Bible but from old movies.

  25. If you think of how Moses bashes the rock with his rod to produce water, he seems to do so to show his own occult powers vs. glorifying Yahweh (his inner God).

    • I thought due to the complaints of Israel, Moses forgot to get glory to God. For that God didn’t allow Moses into the promise land.

      • Moses didn’t explain where he water came from…the complaints should have not mattered. But yes, same incident I was referring to.

      • After all his sacrifices, and everything Moses did for God, and 40 years in the desert leading a bunch of trouble-making, argumentative people around in circles .. I would have thought that Jesus’ God would have had some compassion and let Moses die in the place he had strived to lead his people to, for such a long time. Did he deserve that punishment, DK? And the glory for what? Why did it take God 40 years to find them a home, when it was right there, so close to them .. oh, yes, I remember, he had to arrange to have a bunch of tribes removed from it first, permanently – with extreme prejudice .. which is odd, given that he created ‘them’ too.

        So who was this Jehovah character? Right now, I don’t really want to know. Don’t invite in trouble when Jesus went to the effort of freeing us all from it, thank God. Let’s all just be grateful that he did.

        Happy Birthday, JC, whatever date it might actually be!

        Love & Peace

        • When asking if he deserved the punishment remember that it was from the same “judge” who meted out the violent death/punishment of the 3000 or so family, friends and neighbors. I suppose Moses was lucky to get as far as he did.

          I think we really need a noew topic for this as it is turning into a very interesting page!

          • True CT, just ‘god’ acting like itself. Punish people regardless of previous struggles and good behaviour. Emotional torture is just another form of punishment – but the doney and the carrot thing never worked for me.

            What shall we call the topic? Dissecting the bible? Might make a LOT of work for you behind the scenes LOL

            Love & Peace

          • Dissecting The Bible may be a good title…that way you don’t have to change it again…lol

        • Hello Ama & all

          From what I can gather, everybody is in agreement that the punishment doesn’t match the crime as to which God distribute. Is that a true statement? Everybody sees God only as a god of love. That good, because that’s what he is.

          Here are other factors that we seem not to agree upon:

          God is the Hebrew & Greek scriptures are different?
          (I understand that this is a new question so we’ll probably won’t cover here.)

          Why God allows his people to invade and kill others?
          If there is anything I miss let me know?

          This is going to be a step by step process just to see if we could find and agree on a similar answer.
          If you all can be patient, it would be much appreciated.

          First question to everybody is:

          What are the 10 commandments? Do all agree that these are laws set before the nations to Israel to follow?

          Anyone can answer, even if you believe in the bible, partially. If you don’t believe in the bible, it will be difficult to chim in. for that I apologize.

          • From what I can gather, everybody is in agreement that the punishment doesn’t match the crime as to which God distribute. Is that a true statement? Everybody sees God only as a god of love. That good, because that’s what he is.

            But if the being you’re talking about is a God of love why all the hate and destruction? Is it possible that certain acts were carried out in God’s name when it was not God instructing individuals to do so? This is my guess. I really believe that God is God – no matter your religion, no matter what you personally call God…he is our creator, our father (mother), our all, etc.

            Here are other factors that we seem not to agree upon:
            God is the Hebrew & Greek scriptures are different?
            (I understand that this is a new question so we’ll probably won’t cover here.)

            God is God – period. Whether it’s the God in the Quaran or Gods in The Vedas. And so, yes…this is the same God. But I do not believe all that is written is of God. This is where human error comes in.

            Why God allows his people to invade and kill others?

            God gave his creation free will. While God may not condone this behavior, he doesn’t stop it either. But it is NEVER God that commands the innocent to be killed … or perhaps even the guilty. Taking of a human life is murder…in Biblical cases that’s often mass, serial murdering going on. God never gave the go-ahead on such things. My core, my heart and my soul attests to this…and so in a sense, God is telling me, “Yes, you’re right. I would NEVER have done such a thing.”

            What are the 10 commandments? Do all agree that these are laws set before the nations to Israel to follow?

            I believe the commandments are for the most part excellent ways to live your life. Are they laws for the nations of Israel to follow? Perhaps…but what I KNOW is Moses wanted those laws followed. I don’t know if God gave these to him or not…being honest.

            Anyone can answer, even if you believe in the bible, partially. If you don’t believe in the bible, it will be difficult to chim in. for that I apologize.

            I believe aspects of The Bible have truth and a beautiful message – but I do not believe it is without error. Mankind manages to ruin everything it touches — The Bible included.

          • Hi DK,

            The first four commandments are all about God, and how to treat him. The next one would be great if people were instinctively good, but .. honour thy mother and father – or honour thy elders, or authority figures, I can only say ‘if they deserve it’. I treat everyone with respect, but I believe respect/honour is earned, its not something that can be automatically assumed, because many people simply do not deserve it, and will take advantage of a person and even do them harm. The next five .. no murder, no adultury, no theft, no lies, no coveting – leads to jealousy and envy, are very good, and well worth following.

            But what about the other 603 of the Jewish faith? Paul said that none of the commandments applied to Christians now that he was around, it had to be his decision, because Jesus taught they did .. so who do we believe? I know which one I would choose.

            Love & Faith

          • Hmm.. I missed this bit ..

            DK: “God as God of love and not war?”

            Me: NT God, God of peace, OT God, God of war.

            DK: God in the Hebrew & Greek scriptures are different?

            In my opinion, yes.

            DK: Why God allows his people to invade and kill others?

            OT God ‘allows’, and ‘demanded’ that the Israelites kill whole tribes because it wanted its followers to remove those who don’t worship ‘him’. NT God doesn’t interfere in our choices, but since we have a history of violence, its easy to justify repeating bad behaviour by looking in the ‘Book’. It doesn’t make sense to me to have a commandment ‘do not murder’ in the OT, and then go and tell your followers to kill people ‘in my (god’s) name’. NT God gave us back our free will .. which is the right to choose the right path .. the one of Love.

            Love & Peace

          • Ama, I think you really hit the nail on the head when you said, ” It doesn’t make sense to me to have a commandment ‘do not murder’ in the OT, and then go and tell your followers to kill people ‘in my (god’s) name”

            I don’t think God is ordering anything of the such. Rather, I think people are manipulating people’s fear of God and saying, “God wants us to do this – he told me so himself…” as a political move…as a way to gain power. It’s the same tactics cult leaders use really.

          • People, and other entities with their own agenda .. which had nothing to do with peace.

            Love & Peace

  26. Robyn, I hope that you had a good Christmas. This is in response to your question, which you actually answered for me but not in the way I would have answered it exactly. But I am glad that you asked. This is another huge misconception that I actually answered in an earlier post. In the old testement God did provided the 10 commandments as the Law and there were many other odinances and steps that the Jewish people had to follow in order to hold up their end of the deal with God. They needed guidence ad they needed it written down. his time in history and the culture and social climate including the biggest reasons God gave the Law to Moses was because the Jews had been slave for so long and especially in Egypt at the time that they had become dependent on being told what to do and provided for, however meager, as slaves. The Egyptian government did make sure that they were fed and did not get out of line. When they left for the promiseland God knew that they would need to be taken care of daily and have a strict set of laws to keep them civil so that they could accomplish what He had set out for them to do (remember, the wild card in all theis is the free will given to each person by God that He would not usurp). He provided food by means of manna from Heaven, directions through the cloud that they followed, and spiritual guidence through the Old Testement, animal sacrifice, and His Word through Moses and the other Prophets. This is the covenant that God had with His chosen people the Jews. It was a covenant of the Law. Christ came, lived, died, was resorrected, and sent us His Holy Spirit as part of the New Covenant, the Blood COvenant that would provide the once and for all blood sacrifice for all of our sins, mine, yours, everyone’s if we believe and accept His awesome gift of eternal life with Him. Long way to answer your question, but Jesus Himself said that He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfil the Law. If we put our love faith and belief in Him then He said that if we Love God with all of our hearts and love our neighbors as ourselves then we are npo longer under the Law of Moses and that we will do the right thing out of love for God and our fellow man, no need for the 10 Commandments if we love God with all our hearts and our neighbors as our selves then we will not be committing adultry, murder, and all the other laws given to moses. Jesus is very against legalism and one can get so caught up in following the law that they cannot love God and each other. No person can follow the law to the letter, so they had animal sacrifices to cover the gap. When Christ died and shed His precious blood for us, all we have to do is turn from that sin and ask forgiveness based on the payment made by His blood sacrifice and we are cleansed from that sin and God tells us that He will not remember it. He gives us daily forgiveness as long as we love Him and our neighbors and each other and we pra and ask Him for forgiveness. So, do I adhere to and obey every law and ordinance in the Old Testament? You were right, I do not. Because I believe that Jesus was God’s Son in the sense that God, sent a part of Himself and came to earth and grew up from and infant to a man. Still 100% God in a man’s body, He lived a sinless life that is impossible for us to do, and willing died as that once and for all blood sacrifice so that we do not have to. He could have called ten thousand angels to cut Him down but He did not because He knew that if He did not that there would be no salvation for the rest of us. So I and all other Believers are not under the Law of Moses, the old Covenant, we are under the Blood Covenant of Jesus Christ and if we (and if you) believe in Him and in what He did for us (you) and if you love Him then you will allow His love for you to flow through you and to all others and love Him with all your heart then you are no longer under the law but under God;s grace (unmeritted favor). This means that my sin and yours if you believe are forgiven by Christ sacrifiice through God’s Grace and not by something we have done or did not do. Because He is perfect and we are fundamentally imperfect He saves us by His love for us and the Grace that He has for us because of our faith in Him and our love for Him and humanity. It is by this love that I write what I write here on this blog. Not to argue with people but to make sure that people have heard and get a chance to understand God’s plan for us. He does not want anyone to parrish in Hell but He will not force Himself apon the free will that He gave us. He will populate Heaven with people that chose to love Him while they were still alive and could make that choice. Why would He populate Heaven with people that chose not to seek a relationship with Him through Christ Jesus when they heard what He did so that we could all have a relationship with Him.

    • Hi JK, my holidays have been great. I hope yours has been as well.

      I am unable to grasp by any means of rational thinking WHY God ever needed sacrifices. WHY was this necessary? Blood to cover the gap between the law and sins – I understand that, but why did God require it to begin with? In other words, what did God get out of knowing these things happened? Sounds like serious mythology to me, no offense meant at all, I would like to understand the reasoning behind it.

      I don’t believe Jesus lived a sinless life. To be honest, I don’t even want to believe it. I want to know that Jesus came to earth in total human form and that he knows what temptation and resistance takes because he’s dealt with it himself. Jesus bar Joseph came into this world just as the rest of us and if one had sin upon birth, so did he – but I don’t believe ANY of us have sins at birth…no way.

      JK, the God that you speak of needs a massive fan club – drones, robots. I’m sorry, but humans weren’t made in that fashion. We are curious – asking questions is our nature. Unfortunately, we sometimes conform to things against our true nature though and just believe whatever we’re told (not meaning you specifically – speaking on those who never question anything).

      Thank you for your long, detailed response. Blessings.

      • If you go by the Gospel of Thomas, Robyn, Jesus was not sinless. He actually killed a child in a flash of temper and then ressurrected him, and withered another one into a corpse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas You can understand why it didn’t appear in the bible.

        Love & Peace

        • I’ve studied The Gospel of Thomas a bit here and there and a lot more recently. I quite like the idea of Jesus being less of a deity and more of a human being – something we can relate to!

          In my mind; which by the way may not be the most sound lol, it seems that Jesus being a man with a vision and passion to create a better way is far more preferable to the belief he was actually god (which I do not believe). I quite fancy the thought that like the rest of us he was capable of getting mad enough to do something less than perfect. It certainly helps him to understand why we behave as we do.

          It should have appeared in The Bible. It makes Jesus more personal to us.

          • Jesus was a man. He had to be to be the King of the Jews, to satisfy their Messaniac prophecy, he had to be to do what God wanted him to do. As a God he could not die, so no amount of hanging on the cross would have killed him. And he was only up there for three hours. Suffocation from crucificion often took days. To speed up the process the soldiers would break the suffer’s legs .. so they could no longer support themselves. Nasty. As a human being he was a living example of what we could become .. not some ‘out of reach’ half diety that we had no chance to connect to. And he had a temper. I love him for his temper. He didn’t like something, he said so. And he talked about his belief in his God and HIS love of all of us .. jews and gentiles alike. But he wasn’t power hungry, nor did he have a need to control us. He said ‘follow’ and I would have followed him anywhere. Still will.

            Love & Peace

      • Hi Robyn,

        You know what is ‘in’ blood? Life force. God didn’t need blood, nor did it need our life force, or animal life force, given that God gave it to us in the first place, but to ‘empower’ magic magicians and priests knew that life force, the strength and will of whatever ‘god’ they followed, would make their spells and incantations stronger. Also, demons feed on life force (our negative energy in that case) so of course, to keep them friendly, living beings had to be sacrificed to them. They weren’t actually Gods, but because they could do unusual things, like move things and vanish before our eyes, people believed them to be. And what humans, with little understanding of the spiritual planes etc, saw as greater than themselves they were inclined to ‘worship’ .. which is a good reason why angels generally don’t present themselves as angels to living people these days. It draws our attention away from the ‘real’ creator.

        Love & Peace

        • It is often said that if you know you’ve encountered an angel, you’ve been fooled – meaning angels do not present themselves as angels. Now, I don’t think they NEVER present their true selves. But I do think they are rather picky as to who they allow to truly see them.

          • Some angels present themselves looking like what people expect angels to look like, tall, cute, with wings .. and some of them look like small children, or animals, or white featureless figures, or dark ones, or monks in hoods, or balls of light, or sparkly things .. but its all the same .. its all based on what people expect to see, and they never stay very long, nor do they ask anything of us we are incapable of doing, or that would harm ourselves or another person. The see the BIG picture, we can only glimpse a dot of it .. mainly focused on ourselves. Their task is is enormous, give humanity a chance to learn and grow, towards God, not towards the angels, and not into the darkness, unless we choose that path for ourselves.

            Love & Peace

  27. Hello All,

    I apologize for not keeping up on questions on subject I posted. I’ve
    I’ve been away on holiday and a little change at work stations. So again I apologize. If there is anything I left unanswered that you’ll want explained feel free to bring up. Hope you’ll enjoyed the holidays and new years.

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