The Fallen Redeemed?

While reading the question “Ghost-Hollywood vs. Reality“, A.J. mentioned an unusual experience, an exorcism where the demonic entity chose to go back to God. Ama also mentioned this. I am glad they can return to God.

Would anyone who has experienced this, please expand on the experience? How often do they choose to do this? Is it an extremely rare event?

Thank you.

Asked by Cherry Taylor

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  1. Hi Cherry Taylor

    Great to see someone is paying attention – LOL!!

    OK – this is how I understand it. Everytime an exorcism rite is performed on a fallen angel (demon), God opens up the ‘gates of Heaven’ to invite them back home. However, it is their choice whether they return to God to be healed, or whether they return to Satan and carry on being naughty little children!

    Fallen angels are a part of God. He created them. However, at the time of the uprising, when Satan was cast out from heaven, one third of the angelic realm were also cast out along with him, for they had taken Satan’s side and therefore needed to be punished.

    Ever since that ‘day’ God has always ‘left the door open’ for any of them to return to Him should they so desire – even Satan himself would be welcomed back.

    Pride gets in the way of Satan’s salvation at the moment, but it is fear that holds the fallen angels to Satan, rather than returning to their Father!! But, during and exorcism, the door is left wide open for them to walk through, without fear, should they choose.

    Thanks for your interest – hope I’ve explained myself ok.


    • Yes, thank you A.J. You explained yourself very well.

      I had never heard the concept of the “fallen being redeemed”. The religion I was raised in, rarely spoke about angels much less the fallen angels. I always had the impression, once they were fallen they didn’t have the choice to return to God.

      (On a side note, A.J. I read your book and it is excellent.)


      • Wow Cherry – thank you so much for your complement (AJ now blushing..)

        Going back to the rest of your comment … unfortunately, religions (not just Christianity, but also the Judaic and Islamic teaching) are guilty of scaremongering – presumably as a form of power, or bullying or control. Putting the ‘fear of God’ into all of us from an early age means, we are more likely to be ‘brain-washed’ into submission and less likely to see God for ourselves and question the religion which is ‘teaching’ us. Burning witches, blowing up people or even saying we will burn in hell for eternity is more about flexing muscles, than it is about teaching Gods true Will.

        Therefore, it is understandable that our subconscious mind automatically ‘trips’ back to that which we were taught at an earlier age. The trick is to try to rationalise the whole concept of Gods true intentions, against the twisted versions man has put in for their own political or empowering ends.

        To me, God is not a vindictive God. Jesus taught us that God was indeed a loving God, not a hateful one (as taught by the Pharisees). Jesus showed us another way to perceive God – initially aimed at both Jews and Gentiles. Shame Christian teaching reverted back to the ‘old’ ways on so many levels.

        This is why I reject Christianity. I do not reject Jesus, but I truly believe if Jesus was here today he would be appalled by the terrible atrocities that have been, and still is, done in his name.

        I’ll procariously crawl back down off my soap-box now …. LOL!


        • Hi AJ,

          I agree. Jesus would be appalled. And then he would be dead, because some fool would kill him to see if he could ‘resurrect’ (or be resurrected) the second time around. (sigh).

          Love & Peace

          • I agree with you, I also believe religions are guilty of scaremongering. I started questioning this, probally when I was a teenager because while I wanted to live a good life and be a good person. I knew I couldn’t live up to what my religion taught. I think most religions teach that they are the “only right way”. In mine I was taught that too. They didn’t believe in musical instruments in the church. I started thinking to myself, what loving God would send someone to hell because they had an organ in the chruch services? I couldn’t understand that.

            As I got older I started to learn that religion was man made and spirituality meant something different. I began to understand I could believe in God and Jesus, and have a relatonship with them. I do miss gathering together with people and I would like to find a church I felt comfortable attending.

            I am happy my son learned at a young age the concept of religion vs spirituality. I believe he has a good relationship with God and Jesus. I’m glad he doesn’t have that awful guilt in the back of his mind that being brought up in a chruch can inflict on a person.

            A.J. and Ama, you both have helped me tremendously on my spiritual journey. I want to thank you both.

          • Hi Cherry

            I am so glad that Ama & I have, in some small way, helped you with your spirtual journey.

            Always look into your heart for the answers. If something doesn’t feel right, then in all likelyhood, it isn’t right for you. (Thats not to say it isn’t right for others – just not right for you.)

            I look forward to many more interesting discussions with you about our spiritual journeys.


          • Hi Cherry,

            You are welcome. We like to help.

            I miss the gatherings too. I don’t know where you are in the world, but you might try Christian Spiritual churches. I found a local one the other day, and this lot might be unusual, but they are trying to blend all the major religions of the world together, to get the best from each. Works for me.

            Love & Peace

    • Hi AJ,

      It’s my understanding that the fallen were not being punished by being ‘sent’ out of heaven. They didn’t want to be there anymore anyway, so leaving was no punishment, and they were given this planet to ‘live’ on (first in the energy, and then manifest for them by God). It was only after Samael (Satan) kept going back into heaven and causing more trouble (there were actually 3 lots of ‘fall’ events) that God closed the doors on heaven to them, unless they chose to turn back towards God and ask to go Home again.

      God doesn’t punish anyone. To punish someone first you have to judge what they do is not suitable to what you believe in, and to make a being conform to what you WANT you punish them. That denies everyone free will. God loves unconditionally, that means we can do what we like. S/he then provided guidelines for us to follow, and ‘guides’ to help us learn and grow. Eventually we might all learn to love unconditionally too .. and then we’ll all return Home and be ‘one’ with the One we are already part of.

      It is our choice, the when and where that happens .. not God’s. There is no fixed date, and there is no ‘time of retribution’. There is only ‘here’ and ‘now’ in heaven’s planes. Only humans try to fix events with dates, because we have a linear existence (from birth to death). I guess that’s why its been nearly 2000 years since Armageddon was supposed to have happened. We keep waiting for it .. but it never shows up .. and I’m grateful, given the descriptions. LOL But, I also know its not real, because an unconditionally loving God would never just select 144,000 (or 288,000 depending on who you read) people as being ‘good enough’ and send the rest of us to hell, from the multibillion people s/he created on this world – the majority of whom are not Christian.

      The door is always open for ALL of us to go Home. We only have to choose.

      Love & Peace

  2. Great answer AJ,

    Hello Cherry,

    How often do demons get redeemed, not often enough yet in my opinion, but often enough to impinge itself into the collective memory of humanity.

    Let me tell you a story.

    I used to run ‘rescue circles’ .. you might call them ghostbusting ones. A group of us would meet each week and help lost souls cross into heaven. We did a lot of good work, with individuals and sometimes really large groups of ghosts. One very unusual day, we helped something else entirely cross over.

    There were ten of us in the circle that night, and three of us ‘saw’ what happened, but didn’t talk to each other afterwards. We were all pretty stunned (all ten of us), and exhausted, by the energy of the experience and we all went straight home. Shortly after I arrived I got a phone call from one lady (M) about another who had been in the group with us (G). Well M said G was shocked and frightened and wasn’t sure she should talk to me about it .. so I rang G and told her what I saw .. and she confirmed every word, as M had done already when she rang.

    This is what we saw:

    Into our circle came a truly beautiful angel .. or it looked like an angel, at least for a moment, and then the energy went totally twisted, dark and nasty, and we realised we had a fallen angel before us, leather wings and all. Once I realised what was happening I told the group to HOLD the energy and not try and talk to the being, normally we would ask it questions to find out what it needed to learn to cross over. So we sat and held the energy waiting to see what the entity would do ..

    In my mind I saw a doorway (gate) open, and before the gate stood probably 30 or more of those creatures making a (two-sided) gauntlet from hell that this demon had to get through, all with weapons drawn, all challenging our fallen to get past them to that Lighted Gate. Well, he went. He fought every one of them as if his ‘life’ depended on it. Every time he was knocked down he got up again, he was cut, battered, smashed, bruised, broken .. but he still fought .. and in the end he was crawling to the gate, and then something miraculous happened ..

    From the Gate came two truly beautiful Michael Guardians, and they took one step through the demons (he was so close to the gate by then) and reached down to him and picked him up. And then they looked at us in the circle, and I said the first thing that came to my mind PRAY FOR GRACE. And my non-religious circle of new age folk prayed to God for grace for all the fallen, and the Michael helped that demon Home .. but he had to walk it himself, Cherry, so they lifted him high enough to still keep his toes on the ground, and he ‘toed’ himself into heaven.

    Then the demons were gone, and the Light of Heaven poured from the Gate for a short while, and then disappeared, and we, very subdued, packed up the circle and went home.

    And three of us ‘saw’ this, and everyone experienced the energy of it.

    And just for the science fiction buffs .. this was before Warf walked the gauntlet during a special Klingon ceremony. I saw that many years later and wondered then if one of the writer’s of the scene hadn’t seen another of the fallen returned to God.

    I shall now write ‘believe it or not’. LOL Remembering the experience still rips my heart and fills my eyes with tears. GOD LOVES EVERYONE. How can anyone doubt that – you can’t doubt that after living through an experience like that.

    Love & Peace

    • Thank you, Ama for sharing your experience. It sent chills up and down my spine.

    • Hey Ama

      A great example – thanks for sharing.

      I always see a large marble stairway raising to the West whenever I send spirit over. Some are happy to go it alone, others require some moral support (such as that demon I mentioned on another thread). So, I took that demon by the hand and walked with it up the stairs to the top. I felt just like mother leading her child to safety. At the top we were met by many angels – they all felt so happy. A brilliant experience.

      We really should not under-estimate the Glory and love of God.


      • Gates (metal archways with doors you can see through and open) .. I always see flower covered gates .. on the same level with us. No ‘ascending’ to God, because God is right here on the same level with us, in us and around us. When I went into heaven with the cancer lady .. we both saw a huge beautiful garden, full of larger than life roses, among other flowers. It had to be ‘my’ idea of heaven, because she was terrified? I don’t know. To me it was just breathtaking. LOL

        Love & Peace

        • Hi Ama

          How lovely … could you smell the flowers?

          Heaven is, exactly how we interprete it to be – as individuals. The only time I’ve ever been past the East Gate, all I saw was pure white shimmering marble everywhere – glistening in the sun. Even the room I was taken to, for the ‘meeting’ was of white marble – even the pillars! The only colour I saw (other than the gold door nobs!!) were various colours of the elementals which surround each of the Archangels .. Oh! And a bit of gold on parts of the Archangels clothing. On that occasion I didn’t ascend a stairway – I travelled across the land on horseback! Interestingly, I saw the outer walls of Heaven quite different. I noticed that the foundations were made of various precious stones. That was quite a sight to behold.

          The stairway leading to the East Gate only ‘arrived’ once I’d started helping others to enter Heaven. But I still see it as shimmering white marble – only, the actual gate is now obscured from my view by, what I can only describe as, cloud-like mist!

          I think I prefer your idea of Heaven ……….. LOL!


          • Oooh! Just had a thought (which is quite scary, in itself -LOL!)

            I think maybe, the reason why you walk into Heaven on the level, whilst I climb, might be because (and I’m sure we’ve discussed this before?) I am ‘air’ whereas I see you more as ‘earth’?? This might explain why I feel the need to ‘ascent’ up into the air to get to Heaven??

            Just a random thought!


          • Hi AJ,

            Horseback is good, though I tend to do ‘dragonback’. Weird sensation.

            I’ve been in the marble hall. It had a huge sun pattern, in black marble, on the floor in the centre .. gorgeous. The walls and columns were all white, as was the rest of the floor. And the whole place was warm and comforting and magical.

            Oh yes, I could definitely smell the flowers, and touch them, and the trees, and there was the sound of birds, and water, and other animals, and it was just wonderful. The lady and I found a bench and we just sat and enjoyed the experience, until a group of angels came towards us, and started talking to her, and then one of them glanced at me and smiled and said ‘scoot’.. and I did. (for benefit of those who don’t know what scoot means, it meant .. you can leave now. LOL)

            Love & Peace

          • Hi Ama

            I believe that the ‘horseback’ part (I was sitting behind Benjamin (my protection guide)- it was his horse) was because I was on a very long and bewildering spiritual journey ahead of me at the time, so to me it was more representative of what I was experiencing and what I was being shown. THat might explain why I have never ‘seen’ that part, since.

            When I meditate, I go to one of two places. I never chose where I’m going, rather let my mind take me to where my subconscious feels I need to be. One is a beautiful enclosed garden, not dissimilar to that which you describe, which feels safe and secure. The other place is a sea shore. I am lying on a beach of soft white sand at the waters edge, looking upwards towards the blue sky. Every so often I feel the warm sea water wrap itself around me, gently lift me up,move me along the beech a little bit, then gently lower me to the sand again. This place seems to have really good healing properties for me. I always feel energised afterwards.

            That said, I’m pretty certain that my meditation garden is not the same place as your Heaven – not unless that is how heaven looks as you approach it from the North Gate?? (Uriel, earth). Hmmm … if thats the case, then that would make the seaside the West Gate (Gabriel, water). Interesting ……….

            Na! I’m just over analysing ………. rewind, AJ ……… lol!


          • alot of people talk about what’s in heaven but what do u do in heaven. I am a adventurous person so i would like to go and do adventurous things.Looking at white walls or big red roses isn,t my cup of tea

          • LOL! Heaven’s what you make it, The Man … so, if you want activity and adventure, it will be given to you with God’s blessing.


          • I agree with AJ, the Man. You’ll find what you want there, when its your time.

            Love & Peace

    • That is just an “incredible” story!!! Thanks for sharing, Ama!!! God really does love ALL of us!!

  3. This is a very interesting question. I really have no relevant story to tell that would add to the conversation but, I did want to state something.

    God loves us unconditionally….he created us after all. It is because of this that I believe NO ONE is beyond redemption. We need only open our hearts and ask that he forgive us of our transgressions so that we may begin to heal. He blessed us with free will, so the decision has to be our own….but he’s always waiting to hear our call.

    • Absolutely, Diana. Couldn’t agree more.


    • Beautifully written, thank you Diana.

      Love & Peace

    • Forgive me Diana, Ama and A.J., but your idea of God loving us unconditionally is based on your own personal feelings and false teachings, for the word of God states that anyone who does not confess Jesus as Lord and does not repent, they will not inherit eternal life! Neither will anyone inherit eternal life who is living according to the sinful nature:

      “Do not be deceived: God annot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.”

      When we come to Christ, we are to walk as he walked. The idea is that, as we go from faith to faith throughout our lives, we are being transformed into his image, displacing our old sinful nature with the new man in Christ, taking on more and more of the nature of God. If we go back into living after that sinful nature, then we are not remaining in him and if we die in that state, then we will not inherit eternal life. Why do you think Paul put so much emphasis on fighting the good fight and running the race to gain the prize? Jesus said that at the last day many would try to enter in, but will not be able to.

      The word of God says, “Unless there is a shedding of blood, then there is no forgiveness for sins.” Jesus is our passover Lamb, our atonement, for he shed his blood in payment on our behalf and therefore, no Jesus, then no salvation! I am amazed at how many people have abandoned the word of God, citing that it is inacurrate and fallable. For those who think like this, their God is not the God of the bible, for his word says that he knows when even one sparrow falls to the ground and that nothing in all creation is hidden from him and all things are open and laid bare before him. So, I’m pretty sure that he is powerful enough to make sure that we have the truth of his word.

      Forgive me for being so adamant about this, but I see many people wandering away from the truth and they don’t even know it! There are people teaching that Paul was a false apostle and liar, that everyone will be saved, that there is no Hell, once saved always saved and now we have those who practice a same-sex life styles who claim to be in Christ, but have no intention of repenting and that becasue they don’t think that God has a problem with what they are doing and that even goes for the so-called pastors, preachers, teachers and evangelist who are living same-sex lifestyles. Don’t get me wrong, they have the God-given freedom to live whatever way they want, but regardless of what they think or say, the consequences are the same as they have always been. Nothing has changed with God in regards to this. Unfortunately, they won’t find out the truth until they take their last breath and then it will be too late. This good fuzzy feeling based on your own beliefs is not going to get anyone into eternal life, but only by entering into a faith covenant with God through his Son Jesus Christ can we enter in.

      “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. The will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.” (2 Timothy 4:3-4)

      “The Spirit clearly says that in the later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.”

      • Hi Don

        First off, of course you are entitled to your opinion and I’ll not shout you down because of it. Nor will I proclaim you to be wrong just because your understanding of God is different from mine.

        However, your comment; “faulse teaching” ……. by whom to you think I was taught? A ministary? The Mosque? Some tree-hugger hippy types perhaps??? Well actually, none of those. It is God who has taught me, through my Faith in him alone. He has tested my faith to the limits and yet, I still turn to Him. In fact, its the ‘tests’ which makes my faith stronger, not weaker.

        It was actually through a ‘test’ that I started looking to Him for guidance in the first place. Before that test, I had no relationship with God at all. What I have found though, is that God has been nothing but a comfort to me throughout my life – through thick and thin.

        God does talk to me, Don, through his angels – just as He communicated with the prophets. Conversing with Gods messengers is not a ‘dead’ concept. Nor is it isolated to just the privilaged few. It happens to people all over the world, all the time, in varying degrees. How many times to you get a gut instinct about something, only to discover at a later date that you were right to feel that way?

        If you ask God, he will answer you. The answer might not come in a way we first expect, but He always answers us. And yes, some of those answers may come from the Bible but, equally, they can come from the most unexpected sources.

        Do not be afraid to look beyond the scriptures for answers, Don. You might actually be very pleasantly surprised, and also rather humbled, by what you find.


        • I couldn’t agree more A.J. There are far too many instances in my life that prove God’s unconditional love for me to ever believe otherwise. I truly believe God has let me live the lowest points in my life in order to teach me lessons that I could not learn any other way. I think the way we learn those lessons is not in denying how they made us feel but, finding the underlying meanings in those feelings. Do I believe he’s punishing me? Absolutely not. I will never understand fear based religion…I think the only true religion is the spiritual connection we developed with God in our own hearts through our own life experiences.

      • Heck, when did I mock God?

        Good morning Don,

        Actually, my knowledge of our unconditionally loving God is based on my personal Experiences with God and Jesus, not just from a book, any book. Have you ever actually walked with Jesus, Don, and I don’t mean through the Bible, I mean in person, down a grassy hill, towards a river at the bottom, having a long, long talk .. because I have. And no, I am not deluded. I am a visionary, sometimes a prophet .. and right now I am alarmed at the way Christianity seems to be vanishing from the planet – and its all because of the Christians. God is not turning His back on us, but so many people are turning away from Him, because of, as you say, false teachings and false prophets.

        Your message to us raised any number of thoughts – starting with – it’s always been odd to me that the Christians, and I am one, think they have the only RIGHT path to God, and therefore anyone else is WRONG. Next thought – I don’t remember Jesus teaching his JEWISH followers to judge everyone. Personally, I stand by the ‘love one another as I have loved you’. So where did the Christians get it from .. their teachers! Have you ever done any research on the various Bishops in the Catholic (and other) churches since humanity began this journey with Christianity – I have. Great example they were for the modern times – many of them seemed to know all the ‘deadly sins’ personally.

        Your message to us, however, is wonderful! So much more I could comment on, but I will bore the blazes out of the folks who have turned from God and the church because of judgmental Christians and those threats of hell. What a great way to control people, and also very sad, because people cannot remain in a state of fear when God is in their hearts .. no, they become angry with the fearmongers after a while, and in exhaustion and misery, turn away from that which is tormenting them. But its not God doing the tormenting, no, its the Christians – all the different ‘churches’ with their varying belief systems, interpretations of the SAME book, and opinions on what God will do, won’t do, or wants. So, as I said to Ahwatukee just a few days ago .. which church should I follow, which version of the Bible would suit you? I have 13 different copies of the ‘unerring’ Christian Bible – and I mean different. I collect them.

        Back to your message – in studying Paul, during my Theology University course, I never once heard anyone call him a false prophet. Rabid, yes, false no, but how can we truly know .. he lived nearly 2000 years ago, and the Bible has been changed a lot since then – we have proof. And it seems he didn’t hate women anywhere near as much as people said he did. Some of his ‘works’ were only attributed to him, he might not have actually said them. I must admit I didn’t focus on Paul much, I was more interested in the Johns.

        You said “Unless there is a shedding of blood, then there is no forgiveness for sins”. Yes, ‘Paul’ (or the writer) used the old testament to teach the new, but in this case those words have led to the murder of so many people. Blood is the staff of life, the life force of humanity runs in it, and it is a protection, or it should have been .. if you think of Moses and the plague on first born sons it was. The author of Hebrews (the book is only only attributed to Paul, probably not written by him) used it to remind his readers of the covenant between Moses and God – the covenant that was obviously broken, or Christ would not have had to come and save us all.

        I wonder if the Jewish leaders thought about that covenant when they sent Jesus to the cross. I doubt it. They were in too much of a hurry to kill him like a common criminal, because he was stripping them of their authority. But people like Paul liked the intensity of the imagery, and so back it came. Interestingly enough, Jesus shed his blood before being crucified, and on the cross when he was stabbed to see if he was dead yet .. and he wasn’t .. dead bodies don’t bleed blood and fluid.

        Please don’t talk to me about false prophets, or mocking God. Each church should look within its own membership for those who twist the truth to serve their own purposes. At least here on this PARANORMAL site, we are not defying our belief systems, and the teachings of our church , to spread ‘the good word’ among the heathens. No, we come to talk about ghosts, spirits, demons and other entities, and some people look for help with hauntings, because they can’t find it from their church ministers – no, they get told they are deluded, or imagining things, just to start with.

        But in the meantime, thank you for your opinion. We appreciate all opinions around here. We don’t have to agree with them, and I can sound so adamant in mine too.

        Love & Peace

      • This is your truth , Don. It’s what you believe and most certainly you are entitled to that. I stated my truth, and I feel as though I am entitled to that as well.

        I prefer to see God as a benevolent being of love, not one that will punish me with an eternity of hellfire should I make a mistake. I never really understood that part of Christianity….it’s so fear based. That doesn’t make me feel spiritually connected to God at all….and it’s too bitter a pill for me to swallow. I’m not however saying that you’re wrong…because frankly, none of us really knows beyond any reasonable doubt.

        I won’t delve too deeply in my feelings on the bible but, the bible is not the word of God….it’s man’s interpretation of the word of God, as I’m sure we can both agree seeing as God did not pen the bible by his own hand. Therefore, it is fallible, as no man is perfect.

        Here’s the thing about me, Don. I have loads of tolerance and I can respect the beliefs and tenets of many religions, Christianity included. Do I believe everything Christianity is about? Certainly not. I refuse to live a life of fear because some guy on a soap box tells me I’ll go to hell if I don’t. While that might work for you, it doesn’t for me. But, I’m not going to sit here and go tit for tat with you because I am secure in my religious beliefs and no amount of bible passages being spewed at me will change that. I don’t need to bully people into my way of thinking as I really don’t care if you or anyone else thinks I’m going to hell….and for the record, I don’t believe in “hell”.

        So, you can preach on, but, I have to be honest that I’m really not that interested in hearing you tell me how I’m going to hell for not believing the same things that you do…and I’m certainly not interested in you telling me that I’ll go to hell for professing to someone that God is the ultimate example of unconditional love. So, as my GAY BEST FRIEND would say…”you do you, and I’ll do me.”


        • You go, Diana,
          You mentioned the words “gay best friend”….why are you friends with them? Don’t you know God doesn’t love that person? :) Sorry….I couldn’t help myself. God’s supposed view on homosexuality was a major waypoint in my belief restructuring.

          I remember when my family was a part of the Free Methodist Church. We had a homosexual gentlemen attending. He would often stand up and announce his love for God, and yet I don’t really recall what the poor man said, because of all the whispers, snickers and somewhat-silent banter going on about this man…it was overshadowing. You want to talk about judgement? He was baptised before the church. I don’t know if this was by his own volition, but he was often requested to go up to the pulpit and (without any details, least we all melt in our pews), he would recount how many times he had “unclean thoughts” in his week, and then reaffirm that he was trying to change.

          If someone told me I couldn’t love my wife because being straight was a sin, I believe I’d punch that person square in the nose, then go hang out with my wife…..I certainly wouldn’t spend 2 hours with them every Sunday so they could teach me how to repent, then love and desire other men….because that’s just not the preference I was born with for this life (we’ll see if that analogy works….it has failed before when people rebutted with, “yes but God wouldn’t do that….he just hates gay people”…. most folks on here will get my point, luckily).

          I still remember wondering at the time why he was so evil if God had made him. BTW: I was told many times the answer to that. He was simply a sinner….and he had committed to his original sin. My follow up questions were: “why am I not gay, then? Why do I get an easier way out? Is God really that cruel, unjust and unfair?”

          The man was finally kicked out of the church for “not changing his sinful ways” by our pastor. And, Here’s where it gets a little karmic in my opinion. Two months later our pastor was asked to leave because it was discovered that he was having an affair with the gay man (one of the ladies that cleaned the church on weekends found them together in the pastor’s office). The pastor had a wife and three kids……
          (I know you can’t see it right now…but pardon my huge flippin’ grin).

          At this point, I could no longer deny the existence of Karma…more importantly: I hope both men have made peace with who they are, because the people in that church certainly did not. I can’t imagine the magnitude of harm that was done by a strict, yet very fragmented concept of what humans believed God wanted for this soul.

          eh…I laugh….but this reminiscence has actually saddened me quite a bit. :(

          • HI Siddle,

            Instead of expounding on God’s word regarding what you wrote about, I will just supply the Scripture so that you can read God’s stand on it for yourself:

            “I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people–not a all mneaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy andd swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now Iam writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolaterr or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. ‘Expel the wicked man from among you.’ ” (1 Cor.5)

            When a person comes to Christ, God requires repentance. What is happening today is that, those who are practicing same-sex, instead of repenting, they are justifying and embracing that lifestyle. Yes, God loves the world, but he requires repentance. If a person comes to him and has no intention of repenting, then this is unacceptable to God. Jesus didn’t shed his blood so that we could wilfully continue in sins of the flesh. Now, just so someone doesn’t get the wrong idea, if a person who is living a same-sex lifestyle comes to him and is in agreement with God in regards to his sin, then he can begin to be transformed into Christ’s image. A person must be in agreement with God that he or she is a sinner and in need of salvation, but God requires repentance, which is a turning away from the acts of the sinful nature, not embracing them.

            We are sinners, even after we come to Christ, but the difference is that the true believer is waring against the flesh, not wilfully engaging in it. So, if a man who is living a same-sex lifestyle is in agreement with God that it is sin and he is fighting to overcome it, then this is the right attitude. The wrong attitude and wrong spirit is the man who is living a same-sex lifestyle, but is not in agreement with God that what he is doing is sin and so instead of repentance, he says, “God loves me as I am and I am going to continue in this lifestyle.” Yet, the word of God says, “Whatever a man sows to, that is what he is going to reap. If he sows to please the flesh he will reap destruction, but if he sows to the spirit, then he will reap eternal life.” God did not make man for man or woman for woman, of this he is quite clear about. If a person thinks that he can remain sowing to the sinful nature and still reap eternal life, he is only deceiving himself, for God is not mocked.

            Now, just so it is clear, those who are sexually immoral have the God-given freedom to live as they want, but understand that the consequences are the same as they have always been. If a gay man or woman wants to live like that, then they can, but not as a Christian, for as I said, when a person comes to God, he requires repentance of them, else you remain in the same fallen state.

          • Hi Siddle, and everyone,

            Original sin was eating an ‘apple’ (fruit), not Adam having a fling with another man – no, he slept with a demon instead (Lilith), before Eve and then he seems to have pretended he was an ‘innocent’ in the ‘garden’ (not noticing Eve was naked until she noticed him? Hmm… Maybe Lilith only ‘looked’ like a woman? :-) And another maybe – were Adam and Eve tossed from the garden, not because of the fruit, but because Adam was a hypocrit, and God finally lost patience? How do we get forgiveness if we will not acknowledge our mistakes and ask for it? Looking at all the hypocracy in the Church (not including Jesus) since that time, I have to wonder.

            God is not a hypocrit. He doesn’t ‘say one thing and do another’ .. he, in my experience, does nothing at all, except allow us to have our free will, but I won’t hark on that. You know my opinion, and we biblical folk can be very long winded .. to the point of people ignoring everything we say, anyway.

            I hope the two men of your story found their peace too, Siddle, and all the people that were hurt along the way. Karma can seem cruel, but only if we are cruel first.

            Love & Peace

          • What ever happened to that great Christian value of tolerance, eh Siddle??

            Your story is funny but sad, all at the same time. I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry either …


          • Don,
            Thanks. While I appreciate you giving me “God’s word”, you only gave me what the Bible says. Before I had a chance to read it for myself, I had your interpretation of it to contaminate the understanding YOU (not the Holy Spirit) had regarding the subject matter. I thought my ego was bad…..I’ve never let it get bigger then God! So, uh…have fun with that….wow!

            I guess it didn’t bother you that so many were hurt by what happened in my church, so you backed it with the reasons why all the folks in my old church were justified in turning their hearts from someone who simply wanted to love God. Yeah, not really surprised by that… fact a reminder. So, thank you Don, for reminding me why I should be so proud of my renouncement of Christianity.

            Sorry to my friends on here who are more followers of Christ’s teachings then me….I mean no malice by this : I’m no longer a Christian. I no longer take “God’s word” from one source. Quote me a million verses from the Bible and that will not change….I will still apply one of David Bohm’s most useful observational postulates: if you fragment truth, then you’ll never see the whole truth. You speak of “God’s truth”, but then take it from one source. I can’t think of anything more discrediting…ha!

            So let’s move from “reasons why you should steer clear of Don if you are a homosexual”. It’s boring me. Let’s just cut straight to acceptance and why you should never call YOUR “truth” the ultimate truth…..

            And allow me to respond in kind, but I will let God speak to you with these sacred scripts, because my interpretation of them would only obfuscate their individual truths…..

            Will you then compel mankind, against their will, to believe? No soul can believe, except by the Will of God. -Qur’an 10.99-100

            Those who praise their own doctrines and disparage the doctrines of others do not solve any problem. — Sutrakritanga 1.1.50

            The Buddha says, “To be attached to a certain view and to look down upon others’ views as inferior–this the wise men call a fetter.”. -Sutta Nipata 798

            Comprehend one philosophical view through comprehensive study of another one.
            - Acarangasutra 5.113

            Truth has many aspects. Infinite truth has infinite expressions. Though the sages speak in divers ways, they express one and the same Truth.
            Ignorant is he who says, “What I say and know is true; others are wrong.” It is because of this attitude of the ignorant that there have been doubts and misunderstandings about God. This attitude it is that causes dispute among men. But all doubts vanish when one gains self-control and attains tranquillity by realizing the heart of Truth. Thereupon dispute, too, is at an end.
            – Hinduism. Srimad Bhagavatam 11.15


          • Absolutely brilliant.

            Love & Peace

          • Absolutely!! I agree!! Siddle!!! Ama isn’t the only one who can dance cires here!!!! :D

  4. Hi Cherry,

    I know that there are those who will and do disagree with me, but I have to contend for the truth of God’s word in all matters, otherwise, if we do not base the truth on the word of God, then we have no foundation for thruth at all. That being said, here is what God’s word has to say regarding the fate of Satan and the fallen angels:

    “Then he will say to hose on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’ ”

    (In the verse above, notice who the lake of fire was prepared for)

    “And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. The will be tormented day and notght for ever and ever.” (Rev.20:10)

    According to the verse above, Satan and angels will be thrown into the lake of fire (Hell) at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ.

    And in regards to those angels who took for themselves wifes from the daughters of men (Gen.6:1-4; Enoch 7:1-15), both Peter and Jude said the following:

    “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;” (2 Peter 2:4)

    In the verse above, the word Tartartus is incorrectly translated Hell and is another location within the heart of the earth specifically for those angels who sinned by taking wives for themselves.

    “And the angels who did not keep their position of authority but abandoned their own home–these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgement on the great Day.” (Jude 6)

    When Satan rebelled against God, he got a third of the angels to rebel with him and they will all be cast into the lake of fire at the end of the millennium. God is not offering the opportunity for repentance or forgiveness to Satan and his angels. Anyone who says different is just plainly ignoring Scripture. The love of God does not make obsolete what he has already written, that is, what he has written must take place and that becasue it is his word and that is how we can trust in what he says.

    I would encourage you to read the verses that I have posted for yourself, then you can know the truth of the matter.

    Yours in Christ

    • Hi Don

      Have you ever performed, or been involved with, the Exorcism Rites on a demon? And if so, what were your experiences?


      • Yes, Don, I would also like to know, since I have done them too.

        Love & Peace

    • Don, I respect your right to your beliefs. I know the verses you quoted, I have read them. I am well versed in the “hellfire and brimestone” aspect of the Bible. The church I attended pounded those points home. That is one reason I asked the question. I had not heard of “the fallen being redeemed”.

      I do believe in God and I do believe that Jesus is/was God’s son. I believe God sent Jesus here to earth in human form. I believe God is so much more than we as humans can ever know. I believe man limits what God is by the “rules and regulations” in some churches. I have seen and heard of people that need help from their chruch, but because that help doesn’t fit into a neat little box they are turned away. They are told they are crazy, they’re seeing things etc…

      Don, I have to wonder are you a preacher? If you are and you are reading here, hopefully if a member of your congregation seeks help with the paranormal you won’t tell them they are “crazy or seeing things”. I hope you have an open mind.

      I do not believe Diana, Ama, or A.J. were mocking God. They were not.


      • Thank you for that, Cherry. I have to say that you are right, none of was mocking God….not in the slightest. If anything I think that we are merely trying to explain that there is hope out there, for everyone…not just those who sit in a church pew every Sunday reciting scripture.

        God does not give up on us….I don’t care how many people tell me I’m wrong, or delusional. I know this to be fact. It has been proven to me over and over throughout the course of my life. I see it in the eyes of my children who the Lord so graciously blessed me with, I see it in the love I share with my husband, I see it in the people here on this site who take time from their day to help others with kind advice and words of encouragement…there are so many examples I could go on for days. The proof is all around us, it’s literally everywhere. We need only open our eyes and our hearts and all doubt is erased.

  5. Now with all the fun stuff and misconceptioin out of the way. The question was based on Judeo Christian issues and this is the Judeo Christian answer. There is absolutely no redemption for any kind of spirit or fallen angels. Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is the only way of redemption and forgiveness and His sacrifice was only for humans not sprits or angels. Fallen angels know that there is no way of redemption for them and that is part of why they hate humans. If you go into a haunted house and do find a human sprit if you convince it to cross over it will cross over into hell. No if ands or buts. If you do not choose Christ’s sacrifice as your redemption before you die, you are too late to be redeemed by Christ blood, this is the center of Redemption from sin. The rest is nothing more than wishful speculation.

    • Its nice to know that JK believes that humans have spirits, most true-believers think the human spirit is demonic. That’s a bit of a worry. The rest is his opinion .. or it could be ‘hers’ .. we still are not sure who JK really is.

      I have a question though – if Jesus’ death on the cross wasn’t for human spirits, then why were the old prophets (saints) (Matt 27:53) risen from their graves and seen on the streets of Jerusalem after his death? They had been ‘spirits’ sleeping in the earth, according to the bible .. and there was nothing said about uncorrupted bodies, or decaying ones. And nothing said about them going to hell .. unless you count coming back to this planet as hell?

      JK, I don’t recommend you continue to have conversations with fallen angels. You can’t trust a word they say .. and the only way you could truly know what they believe, or don’t believe, is by asking them. The rest can only be human speculation.

      Love & Peace

      • Hmmm. I have been around Christians all my life and have never heard of any of them who thought the human spirit was demonic or who did not believe that humans have spirits.

        • Hi CT

          I think its all down to interpretation … ah! yes, that old chestnut again! So much can go horribly wrong when we mis-interperate.

          I was chatting to a JW the other day about my mum and, unwittingly said, at least she’s in heaven with God now. To which he replied – Oh! No! She is ‘sleeping’. She will only rise again to go to heaven should God call her name on Judgement Day. So, being me, I asked where was she sleeping and what would happen if God didn’t call her name. He replied that she will remain as dust. In other words, she has no spirit or soul, unless she is resurrected. At least, that is what I thought he meant.

          Either way, I prefer my Heaven theory … at least that’s more of a comfort to me, regards where my mum is now residing, as well as knowing that our actions during life will be accountable for upon death, and not if our names get called at some later date!!


          • I dont know. I was just saying that it may not be as common a belief as that. I have been around a lot of church goers for nearly 50 years and never came across anyone who believed that the spirit of a person was demonic or that we didnt have spirits at all. Im not talking about different interpretations or whether its true or not true. I know a lot of “church folk” and while most of them do believe that a ghost is really a demon and not a deceased person no one I have ever known of holds that the spirit of a person is demonic.

            My first question to anyone who stated that as their belief would be to show me some documentation; I mean where does the Bible say anything like that? I have read it and studied it in depth along with many other books and I missed that somewhere but I do not know it all and so I am open to learn more if you will show me where the notion came from. – That would be what I would say to that person – not what I am asking you :)

          • Thank goodness you’re not asking me, CT …. ‘cos I don’t have a JW Bible to refer you to. LOL!


          • JW Bible?

          • The Jehovah’s Witness’s rewrote the Bible, putting it into ‘modern’ context. I know this because I was reading passages from mine along with the JW, who had his Bible for reference. They are so different, the interpretation and emphasis of certain passages changed quite profoundly. It was a very interesting exercise!


          • And then there was the good Anglican gentleman, whose wife had just died – when I said ‘she’s watching over you from heaven’, he got very upset with me and told me she would only be watching Jesus. I am sure that gave him comfort, but I do hope my family will continue to keep an eye on me after they die. So far they have. :-)

            Love & Peace

        • Hi CT,

          You should visit some of the sects I”ve touched on during the years. Some of their adamant beliefs have been bemusing – including that humans fell and are the demons. But I wasn’t referring to that .. As you said, I was thinking about the VTCM, among many others, who said there are no human spirits, only demonic ones pretending to be ghosts and spirits. I should have worded it better. Sorry.

          Love & Peace

          • Hi Ama

            ‘humans are demons, who fell to earth’

            Is that where the saying, “hell on earth” comes from???


          • ‘humans are demons, who fell to earth’

            Is that where the saying, “hell on earth” comes from???


            I don’t know, AJ, but it certainly fits. Humans are also ‘fallen’, having been turned out of Eden for defying God, just as ‘S’ was thrown out of heaven for the same reason.

            And if you look at society today – trying to live a ‘good Christian’ life among all this greed, anger and hatred, far more rampant than it was 2000 years ago, is almost impossible – I can understand why others might see it that way?

            Love & Peace

  6. Don is commenting on what has been reveled to him by the Holy Sprit and yes throught the Bible. I would guess that Don does not have a spirit guide either, except for the holy Sprit which is sent to every Chritian that really believes in Christ as Saviour> And like me he does experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the awesome liberation from the law and from our own destruction. We are offendede as I am sure God and the Holy Spirit are when you mix new age malarky with God’s perfect Word and don’t tell me man did it all. God’s Word is just the way God wants it and I think if it were not He could use His awesoneness to make it that way. God uses man as His earthly instrument and that is it instrument. So if you start trying t5o mix strange witchcraft and new age beliefs on a public forum and mislead people on what God’s Holy Word says, we will correct you now and until Christ returns. It does not bother me if you two are talking to each other or another new age person but do not give specualative advice on subjects that you discern by the wrong spirit.

    • Hi JK,

      The Holy Spirit talks to everyone, not just you and Don. It’s very egocentric to assume that you are only ones in contact with that divine being – does this mean you are a minister of the church, trained in Theology? I haven’t seen any sign of that so far.

      That what you believe doesn’t agree with what I believe, only comes down to the different trainings we have had in our lifetimes, it has nothing to do with whether the Holy Spirit talks to you or not.

      You are NOT liberated from the Law. Jesus said he had Not come to abolish the law, just to give us two new ones. (Matt 5:17-18) Heaven and earth have not passed away yet.

      And then you speak for God and the Holy Spirit? I am sure if either of them are offended, they will speak to all of us themselves. Hmm.. no comments over this way, and I feel just fine, no smiting either.

      You are right. God’s word is exactly the way he wants it to be (given that we have free will and the right to find God our own ways), in all the different and varying versions of the Christian Bible available to all the different churches who call themselves Chrsitian. I am still waiting for someone to point out the perfect version of the book. I’ll be happy to use it as my ‘authority on the Word’ when they do. But please, provide proof that all the different copies of various gospels etc that have been discovered over the centuries, with so many alterations and woven in comments, are all fakes .. or better yet, ask God to contact me himself, and point out the version of the bible he’s happiest with. That would be simpler.

      Was the guy from Waco a true believer? Better be careful when you assume that every ‘true believer’ believes what you do.

      And yes, you are welcome to comment on my comments .. which I notice now you don’t .. but don’t pick on the people who come looking for help from ghostly or demonic problems that the churches are refusing to help them with. Unless you have something constructive to add, that doesn’t include the usual bible quotes, watch and learn. Some day you might have to help someone without your bible in hand. And it might be something I said, or AJ, or Diana, or Cherry, or any of the other ‘believers without blinkers’, that actually saves the day. It’s in God’s hands.

      Love & Peace

      • Amen, Sister!

        Ama, had you attended any of the 20 churches I have throughout my life (ALL of them, we left at some point because of bylaws or differences in interpretation), I would have had a COMPLETELY different impression of the Christian God. I’m not saying I’d change anything…..heck, how would I be who I am now unless I had gone through so much pain from loving the heck out of God while being told I was an evil diabolic sinner from folks like J.K. and Don just because I asked lots of questions……because I actually thirsted for God’s love and knowledge….

        For me, the equation was simple. 1) I love God. 2) God created me and loves me more then I can understand. 3) I can’t “know better then God”. I don’t believe I’m smarter then God. So when I came to the realization at age 15, that I had more compassion and love then the God that was explained to me at church, I became fearful. I never wanted to serve a tyrant who had less capacity for love and tolerance–nay, acceptance–then me. Every day of the week I communicated with a God I felt very close to…..except on Wed. nights and Sunday’s when I was told of a God that had extremely human characteristics. If God is human, then we are all very much in trouble.

        • Siddle, you are gorgeous LOL .. do you go bowling on Wednesday and Sunday nights?

          20 churches .. hmm.. I have no idea how many I attended, and still attend, looking for God in the energy, and among the people. A person can find glimpses of ‘him’ in people’s faces, but its interesting that if God is ‘with’ the minister, so many of the congregation don’t like him (the minister) and can’t wait to get rid of him. I saw that a few times too, over the years.

          I’m also a diabolical sinner, given that I talk to dead people and am clairvoyant etc. You are only really allowed to do that from ‘inside’ the church (under different titles) .. and yet I haven’t had one fall down on top of me yet, and my favourite church (the building) was the Catholic Cathedral in Armidale NSW, and Wells Cathedral (not Catholic) in England. I used to wait for the falling bricks, or my feet to start burnings .. but not so far. LOL And I’ve had a couple of my most interesting ‘visions’ inside those buildings.

          I love your equation. It’s what guides me too. I defy, well, not defy, but certainly unsettle my family with my ‘quiet obsession’ with the Bible and visiting churches. They are frightened I’ll turn into a rabid fundamentalist, but after all these years, its unlikely to happen now.

          What puzzles me about fundamentalists is that they say the Bible is the literal (to be taken literally exactly the way it is written) Word of God, and then they ignore the bits they don’t like? Hmm…. and I am not into tyrants either. Why use 20 quotes, when 10 words would have done?

          Ah well, I do, however, believe in free speech.

          Love & Peace

    • Hi JK

      Spirit guides ARE the Holy Spirit. They are sent to us from God. We all have the Holy Spirit with us, watching over us, protecting us, giving us wisdom and helping us with our life choices – whether we want to openly acknowledge them or not. Where do you think your faith in God comes from, if it not from the Holy Spirit?


      • That’s how it is in my experience too, AJ. And we can ignore them if we want to.

        Love & Peace

    • There is a difference in basing your truth upon your beliefs, and basing your beliefs upon your truth. The bible is a testament, correct? Literally speaking a testament is a statement given by a witness of true events, correct? The bible starts with “in the beginning God created Heaven and Earth…. Who can provide a testament to that event? No one, because no one was there. So that alone is a bit deceptive is it not? Deception clearly is not the truth. This is a prime example once again of basing truth upon belief rather than belief upon truth.

      And it all goes back to the irrational way some Christians view the Bible…which is as a holy, sacred or “magic” book rather than something that is simply a book. Fundamentally, what they do is get to the place where the bible says what THEY want it to say…a kind of mirror of their own personal epiphany.

      BTW, how can you even tell if you have the Holy Spirit or not? There are plenty of good people of all faiths and no faith who don’t have your understanding of the Holy Spirit. It just sounds like an easy out to me. So then why do you even bother engaging in dialog with a group of no-good new ageist, agnostics, and backsliders like us? To flaunt your superior knowledge and status before God? To rub in that the rest of us have no hope of ever understanding the Bible, because we don’t have the Holy Spirit? C’mon, guys. At what point do you say to yourself, “Gee, my arguments are getting way out there. I really don’t have an honest answer to the Bible’s inconsistencies. I just believe it, that’s all, I don’t really have a reason beyond that.”

      • Or maybe it is “I don’t really ‘want’ to reason beyond that”? It’s easier to just accept, and not question – safer to be ‘inside’ the box (group, or society), rather on the outside and having to deal with the ‘whole world’.

        But its fascinating out here among the fairies … LOL

        Love & Peace

        • Isn’t it though? I mean, it’s actually quite sad that some people live life in a little bubble…especially when they could be experiencing such wonderful things if they just ventured a bit out of their comfort zone.

          I don’t know, perhaps I have just been taking Don and Jk’s comments a bit too personally. In any case, I do wish that they would engage in dialogue that went beyond telling us that we obviously have no grasp of the bible. They might be surprised about the many things we DO happen to agree on. I think that’s what makes life interesting…not just the surprising similarities we share but the DIFFERENCES. They make life exciting. I mean naturally, we all don’t agree on everything religiously speaking but, so what? Why does that mean we can’t have an open and honest discussion about the nature of redemption? Just because I believe differently doesn’t mean I think someone is a horrible person. Quite the contrary…I find their opinions fascinating if not a bit perplexing.

          Eh, I suppose I just get a little over excited when it comes to hearing other people’s take on spirituality and religion. I just find it utterly fascinating. I can’t help it, its in my nature to question our very existence so of course I’m going to question things that directly relate to this topic. I’m a bit of a child in this way I guess :) Always questioning things and being a bit over eager for answers. It’s just me though, it’s who I am.

          • Hi Diana

            ” …perhaps I have just been taking Don and Jk’s comments a bit too personally.”

            Well, if we were to turn round to them (and those who believe the same as them) stating, CATAGORICALLY, that:

            1. They are absolutely wrong,
            2. They are the faulse prophets,
            3. They are mocking God;
            4. That will go to hell for believing what they say and do;
            5. What they say stands for nothing and that it is only ‘us’ that are right;
            6. It is only us who are working for God and possessed by the Holy Spirit ……..etc

            then, I’m pretty darn sure they would take those comments a bit too personally too.

            Thankfully, Christianity taught one very good thing …. tolorance. I do believe it should work both ways and so, despite our obvious differences, the likes of Don and JK should be – at the very least – tolorent of others beliefs, as much as (I would hope) others are are of them. After all, we can all learn a little something from each other – it just takes an open heart and an open ear (or eye, if you’re reading it – LOL) to expand ones knowledge and understanding.

            That said – I really don’t like it when people assume I’m a New Ager. The really gets my dander up ……


          • I second AJ’s comment. And like you Diana, you will have noticed that I like to question everything, particularly when a contradiction pops up. It’s fascinating.

            I wonder where in the bible it says ‘don’t question anything’?

            Love & Peace

          • Hi Diana,

            First I would like to say in regards to “living life in a bubble,” I do experience life. I love to ride my Honda Goldwing touring bike through different states and see different places. When I go on vacations, I usually go to some tropical island to enjoy the snorkeling and the beauty of the island. I live in the Arizona desert south of Phoenix with about 300 acres of desert wilderness 15 ft from my patio with beautiful views of the Sagaro Cati and all of the desert life. I am also interested in photography and just recently captured my first pictures of lightening. But, regardless of anything that I do in my life, God and his word is at the center of everything. The information that I am sharing with all of you is from 40 years of being in Christ and the study of his word. That being said, all that I am sharing with you is not my own idea, but is what I have read and studied and these things cannot be compromised on and that because it is God’s word and therefore, what God has already said, cannot be changed.

            For example, there is no room for debate in regards to how one is saved and that because this is a faith covenant in blood. This is why I continue to proclaim that without Jesus–the one who shed his blood–there can be no salvation. Also, I don’t believe that anyone here is a horrible person, as I am just sharing the truth because I see people following all kinds of different paths, which are from their own understanding, hearsay or from false teachings and so I am trying to tell you what the truth of salvation is, because there is only one way and that is through the One who shed his blood for you.

            Therefore, when I read all of these beliefs that are foreign to God’s word, then I contend for the truth. This started out because I read that people are believing in human spirits wandering around after death, yet, the word of God makes it clear that he knows the exact time of each persons death, whether saved or unsaved and there angels waiting to take each person who dies to their respective places. To say that a human being has to assist God in helping people passover to the other side would be to claim that God doesn’t know what is going on, yet, his word says that nothing in all creation is hidden from him and everything is laid bare before him. This means that he is aware of every little thing that is going on from the depths of the ocean to what takes place in heaven, as well as everything that is taking place on the earth. In fact, his word states that he searches the hearts and the minds of all people.

            I have been trying to get the point across that, the spiritual activity that is encountered by human beings is not caused by human spirits, but by those fallen angels, also called demons and familiar spirits. They are familiar spirits because they know people and events and they replay those events and masqarade as human apparitions. Why do they do this? To keep people believing that human spirits are the cause of the paranormal activity. But for what purpose? Because, once a person, no matter who it is, attempts to contact a spirit, they become a medium or spiritist, which is forbidden by God. This activity keeps a person in the sinful nature and therefore, separates them from God. The other problem with this is that by being open to communicate with these spirits, even out of ignorance, this opens up the ablity for demonic interaction with the individual for demonic activity, oppression and or possession. These demonic beings will come to channelers or mediums as “spirit guides” or present themselves as a human spirits, like a deceased family member. They reenact murders, rap on walls, make scratching noises, levitate and hurl objects, etc. In most cases, they are not going to reveal you who they are!

            The interest in paranormal activity continues to increase with more and more people becoming mediums and ghost hunters, which is exactly what Satan and his angels want and that because it keeps people in sin and gives them opportunity to interact with human beings for oppression and or possession. Also, just because nothing threatening has yet to happen doesn’t mean that it can’t and won’t. Once a person has opened that door, they are vulnerable to spiritual attack. There is a reason as to why there is a spike in the interest in paranormal activity and that because it is going to aid Satan and his angels in the events of the last days.

            If people want spiritaul activity, they will have more they bagained for during that last days. A the blowing of the 5th trumpet judgment, an angel will open the Abyss and out of it will come demonic beings who will have the appearance of locusts amored for battle and wil also have stings like scorpions. These will be commanded to torment the inhabitants of the earth by those stings for 5 months and no one will be able die during that time, for the word of God says that, men will try to kill themselves but death will flee away. After that, the 6th trumpet will be blown and four evil angels along with an army of 200 million demonic beings will be released for the purpose of killing a third of what is left of the inhabitants of the earth. Those times will be a time of ultimate terror, because what people have so eagerly sought after in seances, tarot card reading, channeling, and so forth, will at that time be out in the open and life threatening!

            The 5th and 6th trupets are two of three woes, woes because they are all demonic in nature. If that wasn’t enough, the 7th trumpet/third woe will be the ultimate in that, this is when Satan and his angels will be thrown out of heaven by Michael and his angels and they will be restricted to the earth for that last 3 1/2 years before the Lord returns where they will reek the ultimate evil upon mankind, especially the great tribulation saints.

            Every person who comes into the world, once he comes to an age of accountablity, is on his way to the lake of fire, also called Hell and the second death. A person doesn’t have do anything to get on that road and that because they are already on it. God in his mercy provided a way for us to get off of that road by sending his Son to live a perfect life on our behalf in order to make payment for sin and to make a way for us to escape God’s wrath and his condemning judgment. If we have faith in Jesus, then we are covered by his shed blood and are reconciled to God, that is, we are brought back into a right relationship with him because the wrath that we deserve was put on Jesus and so the payment has been satisfied. The information that I have been sharing with you here is the truth. What will you do with Jesus?

          • I hadn’t thought of it from that perspective, and you know what? You’re right…that is offensive….and for lack of a better word…mean. I just wish that they could realize that the bullying is accomplishing exactly the opposite of what they want. It’s not leading anyone towards’s more likely pushing them away. This is why I really have a problem with organized religion.because at the end of the day it ends up having nothing to do with God, and everything to do with ego. People develop that “I’m better than you” mentality and everything that’s important ends up being left by the wayside.

          • Hello all,

            I have read some of the posts and I wanted to clarify something, first, I am not forcing anyone to do anything that they don’t want to. All I am doing is presenting the truth. My example is that, A.J. had made the claim that she did not need Jesus to in order to be saved and I presented Scripture to the contrary and that because, as I mentioned, without the Son of God, no one has access to God the Father. I have merely been contending for the truth when I see a false teaching. I have forced nothing upon anyone, but have only presented the truth based on the God’s word. If anyone does not consider the bible to be God’s word, then I can show you all the Scripture you want and it won’t make any difference.

            If your house was on fire, wouldn’t you want me to tell you about it? Well, when I see people ignoring the truth of God’s word and trusting in their own beliefs, or the false teachings of others, then I want to tell the truth about it and that is, you can’t get there like that! Salvation is given by God and he is the One who makes the rules. He is the One who is going to judge and therefore, we have to do it his way. I am not speaking about anything on my own behalf, but what is in his word. Someone says, “I don’t need Jesus to be saved” and I present Scripture that shows you do need him. How is that being mean? I’d rather tell you the truth, then have someone say, “I wish he had said something to me.”

            God has made it clear that there is eternal separation from him or eternal life with him and there is no middle ground. It is a miracle that he provided salvation at all, because we are worthy of death, because sin entered into the world through one man and so all sinned. The wages of sin is death! In the same way that sin entered the world through one man, so also eternal life came through one man, Jesus Christ. By the way, in regards to religion, I don’t belong to any. I am not one for religion, but for a personal relationship with God through his Son. I’m not preaching to anyone to join any churches or denominations, but only Christ crucified.

            So, forgive me if I have offended anyone, as this was is not my intention, but only to proclaim the truth. Even Jesus doesn’t force anyone to believe in him for he says, “I stand at the door and knock.” Salvation is not something to force upon anyone, but it should be viewed as a great blessing and that because the person who believes is escaping wrath and judgment and gaining eternal life. But again, it must be done according to God’s will and that is through his Son. After all, he is the One who died for us and the one who intercedes for us after we say “Yes” to him.

  7. Don I agree with you as well that there are many false gospels out there, even now. It is amazing how blatantly people are taking the Bible, God Breated instruction and just making their own personal gospel out of it. But brother, is it just another stern warning given to us His Word that these thing would take place. It is amazing how all true believers guided by the same sprit all discern the major point of Christianity and the Bible the same way, yet we are seeing this sharp rise in this new age personal interpretation of the Bible and the Gospel that in most cases are nothing short of blasphemy. God did give us all free will, but absolutely no one has any freedom to interpret the Bible withut having the discerment of the Holy Spirit. Without the interpretation of the Holy Spirit it is just a personal summary of a bunch of stories. We have to remember that sometimes when we are discussing the Word with unbelievers. We have a few folks that post vociforously so we do have a duty to make sure that what God meant in His Word is not diluted or misconceived in any way. You cannot believe parts of the Bible and disbelieve the rest is a sin against the very nature of God and the worst of deception.

    • We love you too, JK,

      Love & Peace

    • Wow…just…wow.

      I was raised in a Catholic household for most of my formative years…and I witnessed a lot of intolerance from those who were extremely orthodox in their beliefs. I used to ask my father why some members of the congregation felt that it was okay to denounce the beliefs of others. What he told me is something that I still believe to this day. Those who aren’t secure spiritually, tend to force feed their beliefs to others…they must have followers who believe exactly as they do to feel as if they are part of something greater than themselves. Then you have those who are secure, who feel no need to tell others they are wrong, these people generally respect the beliefs ofothers as they see religion as a personal choice that one must make within their own hearts.

      You have your relationship with God…one that is filled with fear and worry. You will always second guessing yourself wondering if God will still love you even if you make a mistake…and that’s fine if that’s what you want to believe. However, it is not what I believe and I and the others here are just as entitled to state our beliefs. You can defame us, say that we are wrong and spouting “new age malarcky” but, guess what? I can pretty much guarantee that none of us will be swayed by your fear mongering. Why is that you ask? Again, it all leads back to being secure in your own beliefs. So…keep thumping your bible against the heads of those who don’t believe exactly as you do…and one of these days, someone is going to get sick of it and hit back. Just prepare yourself for that. I hope that when it does, your fear in God manages to sustain you. That’s just not the type of relationship that I have with God and you telling me I’m wrong will never change that.

      I’m actually sad that you live your life with such fear and bigotry. When you live like that you don’t get to experience the richness that life offers us. You don’t get to develop relationships with those from different walks of life because you are condemning them before ever getting to know them. There’s a huge world out there filled with so many wonderful caring individuals…open your eyes and see that. The world isn’t all black and white, there are tons of beautiful colors.

    • Hi JK

      You do not have a DUTY to brow-beat others into your way of thinking. You do it because you WANT to bend peoples will to your own. The words that you, Don and others who post here are only YOUR interpretation based on scriptures written by men. It is great that you find comfort in your relgious beliefs however, what is right for you, does not necessarily make it right for others. I personally would not go near any religion who spouted hatred and scorn to any ‘non believer’ – particularly if that hatred also included the ‘characteristics’ of God. Who would want to worship a hateful and spiteful god? I certainly woundn’t because a god of that character is actually more akin to Satan.

      As I said to Don earlier, and I will say it to you also, do not be afraid to look beyond the scriptures for answers. You might actually be very pleasantly surprised, and also rather humbled, by what you find.

      Please, show a little respect for the non-Christians around here. Thank you.


      • I will say it again, and probably again and again ..

        Thank you AJ, you said what I should have, and I appreciate that you did. No one has a ‘duty’ to try and convert people .. if people want to be missionaries let them go and find somewhere else to play. I am afraid, after hours of deliberation on how to politely answer JK, I simply ran out of words.

        But I stand by what I said .. ‘we love them anyway’ .. very biblical that teaching. LOL

        Love & Peace

        • LOL! Sometimes; the least said, the better the effect -so why go into a rant, like I did? At least we appreciate we’re all on the same side, even if JK and Don don’t.

          Hey JK – here is the definitian of New Age and … err … that ain’t for me, honey! I look to one God, and one God alone for guidance; I haven’t got a clue what the Age Of Aquarius is all about; I’ve got no time for Astrology; I’m undecided about the concept of reincarnation(as nice, comforting thought though); I don’t do paganistic rituals or spells and the last time I went to Stonehenge, I was 5 or 6 and it was a school trip. Hated it!! I loved the visit to Salisbury Cathedral on the same day, though!

          I do, however, enjoy studying all the different religions and beliefs because there is wisdom to be found in all of them – and yes, I include Christianity. If that makes me a New Ager then ……… well ….. yikes!


          • Ah yes, people have tried to pin that label on me, AJ, or expected me to grab it, but it never fit. I say I sit on the edge between the new age, and Christianity, with a foot in both camps, so that people can find the peace and healing they need in either, or both. I’m a ‘one God only’ person myself, know I am a Gemini/Cancer Cusp (and I do have characteristics of both quite strongly), but that’s as far as it goes. If I want to look up my ‘chart’ I go to but I have no idea what it all means. LOL Reincarnation I believe in, because I have sooo many memories of other lives, and had them long before I even heard of the concept .. my household was not madly Christian, but there was ‘no funny stuff’ when I was growing up. My only rituals are the Michael Invocations, and even they are said without ‘ritual’, anytime, anyplace, with thanks to God afterwards. Spells .. I don’t use them. I undo magics that have gone wrong, don’t need to create any of my own. And you guys already know my fascination with religion, particularly the Christian one.

            Yes, Stonehenge was a disappointment. I went twice. Both times .. no energy, no leylines. My personal opinion is that the lines, if they had been there, were cut by those two highways the circle now stands in between. Very sad. And then there’s Salisbury Cathedral, gorgeous, and Winchester, and York Minster .. where there is no room to rest your eyes .. that one I found tiring. My favourite cathedral is Wells. I love old buildings,

            Love & Peace

          • Hi Ama

            I don’t see your Michael Innovation as a ‘ritual’. We all need something we know works for us at an ‘appointed’ time – I may use Psalms 23,19,75 & 79 for example, along with the Lords Prayer, when ‘rescuing spirit’ if I feel it warrants a firmer hand. But I only use these things when it is required to do God’s work.

            Rituals to me are like – for example – having to stop what you are doing at specific times each day, to pray to a Mecca. Rituals are following strick rules regards the preperation and eating of food. Rituals are things which take over your daily lives – but for what purpose? I don’t believe these things make you closer to God, they simply make you a ‘slave’ to the religion which demands these things.

            It would be interesting to get a Jew or Muslim’s take on these things, to give us a different purspective.


          • I dont’ see it as a ritual either, AJ. It’s more of a request for help, that actually works.

            Thanks for your Psalms list again, I was going to write and ask you for it. LOL

            Love & Peace

          • You’re most welcome, Ama. I always read them in the order written, too, because that is how I was taught!


    • Hi Jk and all,

      Finally, someone who has the same Spirit. Just to clarify to those out there who are following their own paths, since God created all things and is above all things, then his word is the source of all truth. We can trust in it, hope in it, anticipate his promises and know that what he has written he will prerform. Once we get away from the truth of his word by listening to the teachings of men (and there are many) or begin to live by our own beliefs or the beliefs of others, then we have no truth to stand on. For example, there are those who continue to proclaim that they don’t need Jesus to be saved, yet the word of God says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eteral life, but whoever does not believe will be see life for the wrath of God rests upon them.” Jesus also said:

      “I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. ”

      Jesus is the sheep gate and only those who enter in through him will be saved. Anyone trying to enter in another way will not make it. We can only be saved by the one who made atonement for us. The problem of today is that, prophecy is being fulfilled in that, many are not putting up with sound doctrine, but instead are gathering around them teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear and are turning away from the truth and are turning aside to myths.

      I am not trying to force anyone to do anything, but only to contend for the truth of God’s word. When I come upon false teachings, then I expound on the word of God in order to proclaim the truth and to warn of the consequences. For unless a person has faith in the One who shed his blood for you, then there is no salvation and the wrath of God remains on that person. No one can even have access to God except through Jesus Christ, for he is the one sitting at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us.
      Therefore, whoever does not have the Son, neither does he have the Father, but whoever has the Son, has the Father also. Unless there is a shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins. Jesus is our shed blood and therefore, without him there is no atonement and no access to God the Father.

      • I was curious about something Don. I’m not asking this in a mocking way, I really am interested in your answer because it’s something that I’ve never truly understood about Christianity. I’m hoping you can answer given your knowledge of Christianity and the bible.

        What about the people that have no knowledge of God or Jesus? I mean literally no knowledge, such as people who lived and died in far flung parts of the world that are cut off from mainstream society? They’ve never been given the chance to accept Jesus as their savior, so, where do they go when they die? I’ve asked this question before and I’ve never really received an a response that can actually be called an answer.

        • Hi Diana,

          This is a good question Diana and I have a few good answers. First of all, God is a just God and he will judge fairly and righteously according to each individual. To answer your question, this is what the word of God has to say regarding this:

          “And this gospel will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations and then the end will come.” (Mt.24:14)

          And during the Day of the Lord, God sends an angel to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ to all of the inhabitants on the whole earth as seen in the following verse:

          “Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth–to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, ‘Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens and the earth, the sea and the springs of water.’ ”
          (Revelation 14:6-7)

          The mention of the angel proclaiming the gospel to every nation, triibe, language and people is meant to convey the idea of everyone on the planet. During that time, God will even send an angel to warn people not to worship the beast, his image or receive his mark.

          I’m sure that there are other Scriptures on this subject, but I hope that these will answer your question.

          • Thank you, Don. I appreciate the response and FINALLY I have my answer! You don’t know how many times I have asked that question and received gibberish in response, and it makes sense, so that’s always good :)

  8. Cherry, I agree with you too that God can do anything that He wants. Once one has surrendered their life to Christ and accepted His sacrifice as their’s the is no longer any bondage to the law. The only 2 commandments a true beleiver lives by are the two that Jesus gave us, love Yaweh with all of you r heart and love your neighbor as yourself. If we do those two things in Jesus’ name. If we try our best to get those two right we do not have to worry about the rest, God will handle them. I am not worried here about God being bashed or Christianity being bashed, I am worried about lost souls seeking the truth here and being deceived and mislead, even if it is accidental. I don’t think bad of anyone here and I truly think most people have good intentions and are just mislead themselves no matter how much that they think they know. Ignorance is not and will never be an excuse that God will honor. Why, because of His Word. Some believe that man made it and wrote it to work for Him. I say that they creator of the Universe that made the Heavens and the Earth and made us can make sure that those who were held accoutable for the preservation of His Word did at His pleasure and He would not allow any mere man to corrupt His Word. To sam that mere men could corrupt God’s Word for us is basically saying that He is not sovereign. It may appear manipulate to an unbeliever that reads it, to a believer that reads the Bible with the discerment of the Holy Spirit, everything falls into place. The history, what is going on now, spirituality and what is coming veryvery soon to this wretched world.

    • Hi JK

      Are there any teachings in your religious doctrine have about the eating of pork, and kosher foods?

      Also, is there anywhere in the scriptures whereby Jesus denounces the Jewish eating rituals? I know kosher was observed by Jesus, as there are examples of this in the NT, but just wondered if there is a passage which Jesus said “it didn’t matter?”

      I am actually asking a serious question here – I was dicussing this with my friends and we didn’t know why Christians dropped the pork/Kosher rules.


      • If Christians were to observe the pork/kosher rules then it would only be logical that they would also follow all the rest of the “old law” Why pick and choose which parts of t he law to follow if you believe its the law?

        • Hi CT

          I see what you’re getting at CT, but Jesus observed Kosher Lore – which is extremely complicated, btw!!

          I was just wondering at which point it became acceptable to eat meat and dairy products together, eat non-kosher bread, eat animals other than those with cloven hooves and chews its cud (ie pig, rabbit etc) and fish without scales or fins (crab, lobster etc) and so on and so forth.

          After all, Jesus may have put a new ‘spin’ on God (ie a loving God, not a spiteful one) but he was still referring to the same God, using the same scriptures from the Torah as reference.

          I just thought it interesting, given that Islamic Lore has similar ‘eating rituals’ as the Judaic Lore, that Christians no longer observe it. And, more importantly, why? And, When?


          • That would be a good question in and of itself. My own belief/opinion is that it is because “modern” Christianity ie Constantine, Niceae (sp?) etc is far far from what Jesus taught. Deals and unions with various “pagan” religions along with the meddling of Rome and politics all worked together to give us what most call Christianity today. Personally I see a huge disparity between what Jesus is thought to have taught and how “Christians” behave and live. That isnt a judgement or criticism against people but organized religion and the traditions and dogmas that have been passed on down even to the Protestant churches.

          • A.J., I will do my best to answer your question from the religion I was taught growing up. They cited Acts 15 which starts out with the conflict about circumcision. There were “some from the sect of the Pharisees” who said it was neccessary for the new christians to be circumcised and to follow the law of Moses.

            It goes on to say that the apostles and elders got together to talk about what to do. Finally, they wrote a letter and sent it to the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia. Here is the last part of the letter, Act 15:28-29:
            28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

            From this the only food restrictions on non-Jewish people were things offered to idols, from blood, and from things strangled.

            I used the New King James Version and read all of Acts 15 for the full picture. I hope this helped and made sense.


          • Hey! Thanks guys, for all your responses.

            I personally think that too much ‘ritual’ (in anything, not just religion) is unhealthy as it clouds the real issues.

            Hi Cherry -thanks.

            Interesting quote, Act 15:29, about blood. Most Christian denominations do not eat meat which has be drained of blood (treibered, soaked and salted) & there are no restrictions regards eating a juicy steak, offel or skin (chicken, for example). So I’m guessing that quote was advisory, not compulsory??

            This leads me onto another question to the Christian’s on here …

            If you found out you were eating Koshers food, would you be offended by it ??


          • Not me, I love food from all around the world, though I don’t think I could eat chocolate ants. Don’t like the smell.

            Love & Peace

        • I agree, CT!!! If it’s all the Law, why don’t Christians practice all the Jewish rituals along with the Christian? After all, Christ, the founder of Christianity was a Jew and he followed those laws as well. So, Christianity should have just been an extension of Judeism, and not really separated from it, as it has become.

          • Jesus fulfilled the law and we are no longer under it. That was the entire purpose of Jesus sacrifice wasnt it? To provide mankind with a means to salvation without animal sacrifices and the ritual of the law of Moses? I do not believe that “Christians” should follow the old law. I only question the notion that many of them seem to go back into the old law and pick and choose certain parts to follow while ignoring others. If one is to follow the law of Mosesit would seem that they would follow all of it and not just pick and choose a part here and there.

          • Hi CT, AJ and everyone,

            It seems like a huge sacrifice demanded of one man if Jesus only came to free humanity from the Law .. I really do believe there had to be a lot more to what was happening, that people don’t know about .. having taken the metaphysics out of the bible. But that is just my opinion. :-)

            I’ve been dipping into the many other opinions on the subject, and it seems to me the Christians are ignoring something that Jesus said in hopes of getting out from under the Laws of Moses. Matt 5:18 says “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law, until all is accomplished.”

            Until Heaven and Earth pass away … Matt 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away”.

            I wonder which words he meant? “Father forgive them, they know not what they do”. Luke 23:34 (my phrasing).

            LOL Doesn’t that sound melodramatic? Truthfully though, I thought, as Christians, we were supposed to rely on Jesus’ teachings, and not our interpretations of what we think he meant, as Paul, and so many others, have done? I know its only a small point, but it could be a sticky one. If we aren’t allowed to disobey any of the ‘laws’ .. hmm… I think the Christian world is in trouble. Jesus didn’t like hypocrits either.

            Amazing subject, AJ. Thank you.

            Love & Peace

          • I didnt mean to imply that that was the only reason.

          • I never thought you implied it, CT, I was just writing what I was thinking, as I was thinking about it. It’s branched me off into a whole lot of other thoughts on the subject, that I will end up blogging, rather than boring the folk here. Thank you.

            Love & Peace

          • Re: Caretaker,

            Hi all,

            Caretaker is absolutely correct in that, we are no longer under the law of Moses. The covenent of faith was introduced 430 prior to law. In fact through father Abraham. The law was added because previous sin had gone unpunished and it was meant to be a burden. It was a schoolmaster leading us to Christ and was never meant to bring eternal life. When Christ came, he met the righteous requirements of the law, fulfilling it perfectly and then nailed it to the cross as completed. Israel failed at it then and now and anyone who is attempting to fulfill it currently is failing at it and that because no one is able to keep the law. For God’s word says that if you break it in just one place, then you’ve broken the whole law.

            We are no longer under the law of Moses, but for those who have truly received Christ, his word is written on our hearts and we are led by the Spirit of God. In fact, when the law was required, it was necessary to keep the law and to live by faith. Now we are under the a new covenance, which is salvation by grace through faith apart from the law. If anyone attempts to enter into eternal life by observing the law, it will kill you and that because you are not trusting in the completed work of Christ on the cross. For the word of God says that, “No one will be justified by observing the law.”

          • Thanks Don, for you informative reply. Glad to see I got the ‘Father Abraham’ bit right!! Guess summut from the OT must’ve sunk in, at some point. LOL!


          • Harking back to the discussion of ‘hell on earth’ :-) , my next question has to be -

            When did heaven and earth pass away? It’s spoken of as a future event in Revelation, not something from the past .. so Jesus saying “not until heaven and earth passes away”, (Matt 5:18) is to be ignored? Yes, he fulfilled the law, but surely its his second coming we should wait for before we decide we are outside the law, given he’s bring the new heaven and earth with him? I don’t remember him saying he came to abolish the law .. no, he was upholding it his whole life long.

            Aha ..stray thought .. did Jesus represent ‘heaven’ and ‘earth’ when he passed away (died)? And his resurrection made him the new heaven and earth? So is the second coming actually the third new heaven and earth?

            In the meantime, since heaven and earth appear to have passed away somehow, this must be hell? There’s no other location it can be. Makes sense of the devil attacking humans, we are invading ‘their’ turf. Ok, I don’t actually believe that .. but .. if we are going to reinterpret the Bible, we may as well go all the way.

            Love & Peace

      • Hi guys,

        I did a quick search on the topic of eating pork and came up with various pages along the same theme as this one. It’s very interesting.

        Love & Peace

        • is another interesting page.

          I can’t seem to pin down who made the changes. Keeping hunting …

          According to what I ‘can’ find, it was Paul who stated that Jesus had ‘fulfilled’ the law, and therefore (it could be interpreted that) all Christians did not have to obey any of the laws – which would include the kosher restrictions, among other things. Romans 7:6 “But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are not slaves under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit”.

          Amazing book. You can make it say almost anything you want. Paul is talking about sin, not food, but … give a ‘man’ an inch, and aren’t we inclined to grab for a mile?

          Love & Peace

      • AJ!!
        Excellent question to ponder and research!!! I feel this would further prove how the Bible has been written, rewritten, edited and translated over the years to so many different versions that no one can be 100% sure with absolute clarity that the Bible they read is the one true and PERFECT word of God. If God did, origionally use man to pen down His scripture,(which I am not discrediting to be possible!) then MAN has taken MUCH liberty upon himself to edit, rewrite, translate and re-translate that Word, to where it is has very literally been lost in translation.

        • LOL! Totally confused by the translation, more like .. haha!

          I would like to point out here, I wasn’t trying to discredit or nullify any religious teaching, nor any ones Biblical interpretation for that matter, with regard to my Kosher question ……. I was merely curious as to why Judaic Lore insists upon the obeservance of it and Islamic Law observes Halal (pretty much the same as Kosher), yet most Chistians do not.

          I am guessing that the reason why both the Islamic and Judaic religions observe it is because it has been handed down from Abraham (considered the Father of both religions) via both Ishmael’s and Isaac’s lineage.

          I have been absolutely fascinated by the responses to this question … thank you all so much.


          • Hi AJ Ryder and all,

            In answer to your question, the reason why the Jews are still concerned with the Mosaic law, is because they did not recognize the day of their visitation, that is, they did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah when he came. This is why to this very day that they are still looking for him and why they continue under the law or parts of the law. During the last seven years prior to Christ’s return, God will have 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel sealed as first fruits to God (Rev.7, 14). These will be Jews who come to the knowledge that Jesus is their Messiah. The woman of Revelation 12 is unbelieving Israel who gives birth to the 144,000 and will at some point say, “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.” The 144,000 will be caught up to God and his throne and the woman will be cared for out in the desert by God for a time, times and a half a time, which is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period before Christ returns to set up his millennial kingdom.

          • Hi Don

            OK I admit, you lost me a bit there with the woman bit …

            But, more importantly, when you say “Christ returns to set up his millennial kingdom” do you mean he is returning in the spiritual sense, or the physical??


  9. Hi A.J. and all,

    In answer to your question, according to the word of God, Jesus will be returning physically to this earth (Behold every eye shall see him) to set his thousand year reign on this present earth. Here is a brief summary of the chronology of events:

    1. Church age: God is still building his church.

    2. Ibid – Resurrection and catching away of the church
    (1 Thes.4:13-18; 1 Cor.15:51; John 14:1-3)

    3. The Day of the Lord, (Wrath of God) which is meted out in the form of seven seals,
    trumpets and bowl judgments. (Rev.6:1-17; 8, 9, 11:15-19; 12:1-17; 15 & 16)

    4.The Lord’s physical return to the earth which ushers in the end of the age and brings
    an end to human government and the establishing of his.
    (Dan.2:24-49; Mt.24:23-35; Rev.1:7, 19:11-21)

    5. Beast and false prophet thrown alive into the lake of fire. (Rev.19:20)
    a. The kings, generals, armies and all the wicked gathered at Armegeddon and killed.

    6. Satan and his angels thrown into the Abyss for a thousand years. (Rev.20:1-3)

    7. Thousand year reign of Christ (Rev. 20)

    8. End of thousand year reign on earth:
    a. Satan and his angels thrown into the Lake of Fire. (Rev.20:10)
    b. Resurrection of the lost dead. (Rev.20:1-15)
    c. Great White Throne Judgment of the lost dead. and lake of fire. (Rev.20:11-15)
    d. Current heaven and earth pass away. (Rev.20:11; 21:1-2)
    e. God creates a New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem. (Rev.21 & 22)

    9. Eternity ……………………………………………………..

    Jesus said, “I will build my Church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it! God is still in the process of building his church, but that period is coming to a close quickly. That which is to follow–which is the Day of Lord–is described by Jesus as a:

    “Time of great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now–and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.” (Mt.24:21-22)

    During the time of the Day of the Lord, God is going to decimate the population of the earth via the seven seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. During that time, God will still be looking for people to repent, but it will be duing the worst time in the history of the world since man has been on the earth, which is why Jesus said that, if those days had not been cut short, then no one would survive, that is, no one would be left alive on the earth if it was allowed to go on any longer. Those who continue to reject Jesus will find themselves trapped in that time period, where God will be pouring out his wrath and Satan will be persecuting the saints through that beast, the man of lawlessness and the false prophet. As for those who are already in Christ, God’s word says that we are not in darkness that this day should take us by suprise and that because we believe in his promise and are anticipating and watching for it and will escape God’s wrath through the resurrection and catching away. His promise of forgiveness of sins and eternal life is to everyone who is reading this, no matter what sins they may have done, for he says:

    “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him and he with me.” (Rev.3:21)

    To paraphrase, Jesus is standing at the door of each individuals heart and whoever opens that door, (believes in him and receives him into their lives), his Sprite will come in and take up residency within you.

    Whoever has the Son has the Father also, but whoever does not have the Son neither do they have the Father.

    Sorry about being so longwinded so-to-speak and I hope that this sheds some light on these issues.

    • Hi Ama and all,

      I don’t think that you read my post correctly Ama. I put everything in chronological order and therefore, if you look at my list, heaven and earth pass away after the end of the thousand year reign of Christ. Do you see how they are numbered? If you follow step 1 through 9, that is the chronological order of things.

      • Morning Don, :-)

        It wasn’t this post I was talking about. My subject was whether heaven and earth had passed away yet – given it was the second criteria of Jesus saying when people were going to be released from the Laws. Since it hasn’t, as you point out, and I agree, in my opinion Christians are still bound by the Laws. I believe if we are going to focus totally on what the Bible says, as the unerring Word of God, we should focus first on Jesus’ words – after all, he’s the centre of our Faith.

        Love & Peace

    • Thanks Don – very interesting and no, not long winded at all.

      Question: How are we to recognise Jesus? For example: He might present himself to all in the form of a woman? Or disabled? He might be black, Asian, white, or native american indian etc? He may be a psychic? A faith healer? An astoliger? A ‘faulse’ prophet? So, how would we know him/her?

      Shamed to say, there will be many Christians who would not accept Jesus in any form other than that which he was dipicted in the Bible … yet, other non-Christians might be more accepting because they are more likely to listen to what someone has to say, rather than stick rigidly to what is written.

      This is precisely the same as the synario with the Jewish people and the 2nd coming of the Messiah. As you’ve said before, the Jew’s did not recognise Jesus as the Messiah and we really have to ask why that was? The reason, I believe, is because they expected a ‘carbon-copy’ of the first Messiah. This is why they rebuked what Jesus said because their noses were buried too far into the Torah and the past.

      I have my own theories about Jesus’ return and yes, it may surprise you to learn, I do believe he will return. But I also believe all the other great prophets will also return at the same time – each one representing a ‘house’ of the Father (in other words, a representative of each and every religion/belief). But I’m not sure whether or not they will return in psychical human form because, as history has shown, human respresentives of the Lord tend to be labelled as faulse-prophets by more people, than not. But I’ll not bore the pants of eveyrone by going into my theories, but its more akin to Ezekiel 1:4-5.

      In any event, when the time comes, not a single person will be left in any doubt. Even the athiest will ‘bow his head’ for the truth will finally be revealed. It will prove to be a very profound and positive experience for all. I do not believe a single person will be sent to hell. In fact, hell itself will cease to exist because there will no longer be a ‘use’ for it.

      Another very interesting subject – thanks Don


      • And I am the complete reverse, AJ .. I think Christ (not Jesus) never left – ‘he’s’ part of every spirit being, on planet or in heaven, so he doesn’t need to ‘come again’. But its nice to have something for people to live in fear of.

        Love & Peace
        Grumpy. LOL

        • Hi Ama,

          With this kind of logic, it would make you a perfect candidate to believein the beast, that man of lawlessness who is to come, when he proclaims himself to be God or anything that is called God. This is exactly why Jesus said for us to watch out for false Messiah’s and false prophets and that so that we would not be led astray. The beast and especially the false prophet are going to be performing counterfeit signs, miracles and wonders and this is how the world will be deceived. (2 Thes.2:1-12; Rev.13:13-18)

          There is only one Messiah and that is the One who shed his blood, Jesus Christ. The same Messiah who shed his blood, is the same one who is coming back.

          • Right Don, I believe in the devil. So did Jesus. But if he (the devil) turns up with signs and wonders, through my logic you are questioning :-) I’m not going to believe he’s Jesus Christ either.

            I also know there is only one Messiah, and that there is a ton of confusion, led by the devil, in the world right now. Perhaps it will get worse before (make that ‘if’) Christ separates himself from all of us and ‘comes again’, but its pretty intense now, and I don’t believe we are in the time of Revelation. What we have to do, in the meantime, is work out where the confusion is coming from .. and the Christian Bible is a perfect example of confusion .. given the contradictions, rewrites, adaptions, editing, inventing, adding-to and removing, of its words, that has happened over the millenias since Jesus died.

            Personally, I think we are supposed to be working our way ‘to’ God, not standing still proclaiming the good Book is ‘all and everything’, and waiting for God to come to us. Where is the learning and growth of our Spirit in that? It is very easy to do nothing, idle hands can be found work by the devil .. and so can idle minds. God didn’t create us not to think or question. And as much as some people think, we are not empty vessels when we question the bible’s teachings when they lead us to believing that God will punish everyone but the few listed in Revelation when Jesus gets here.

            So, does this mean you believe all the editing that has been proved to have happened to the Bible since it was written, is the work of the devil? Hmm…. now there’s a thought, since it has been done by human hands.

            Love & Peace

          • Ama,

            If this collection of books called the bible, cannot be trusted as the absolute truth of God’s word, then we have no basis for truth at all. I believe that God is Sovereign and that he is able to make sure that we have his word. All that we have here is exactly what has been taken from the most ancient copies, the dead sea scrolls and all the other original manuscripts. Regarding the authenticity of God’s word Scripture says the following:

            Galatians 1:11
            I wanted you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

            2 Peter 1:20-21
            Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

            2 Timothy 3:16-17
            All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

            As I said, if what we have now is not the truth, then we have no basis of truth at all and it becomes a free for all.

            By the way, give me some examples of these inconsistancies that you are speaking in God’s word.

          • Don,
            I would have to agree with Ama; sorry. The Bible depicts God as sick , twisted and enjoys torturing His creations, but in the same hands says that God’s love is unconditional? How is that possible?! Doesn’t make sense is is at utmost, contradictory. If God loves us unconditionally, he would not want us to suffer at his hands, but if we do suffer, it is by our own. God wants us to learn and grow;we are His children after all. And the Holy Spirit resides in each and every one of us; not just those who accept Christ. The body is a Temple, remember? A Temple to House the Lord.
            How, exactly, do you think you are able to discern what is truth and what is not? You don’t get that from the Bible but deep inside of you. Your God Center, where the Holy Spirit resides. We can all get in touch with our God Center, regardless of our religious beliefs, and trust in what it tells us. That feeling that something is not right, is coming from God Himself. S, you really do not need a book to let you know what is truth and what is not. God, living inside of you and each and every one of us, will let us know if we only just listen. It is not a free for all. Some of us will chose to get in touch with our God center, and some will not. Those who do not, have a much tougher time with their learning experience hear on earth, but may get it right next time.

            You see, Don, I think God is still trying to speak to us, even today, it’s just that not all of us are listening. You seem to be very comfortable living “inside” the box and reading you Bible, living in fear and waiting for the “end of days.” That is your choice. If the Bible were somehow to be destroyed and we as humans, have nothing which to reference from, how would we know what God wants us to do? Strangely, I think we would have to start relying on our “God Centers” to let us know! You see, I think we should be loving God and in reverence of Him, Not living in fear. Best of Luck, Don and may God’s Pure Light surround you.

          • Lovely comment, LunaTerra,

            Love & Peace

          • If the Bible “cannot be trusted as the absolute truth of God’s word, then we have no basis for truth at all”

            No, Don .. not ‘we’, just you, and people who believe like you. You know, I admire people of strong faith, I also have it, but I puzzle over those who insist on ignoring the ‘fact/proof’ that the Bible has changed over time, and has been mistranslated by many people over the millenia. However, if that keeps you safe, happy and loving God .. you’ll find no questions from me – but in my experience it doesn’t, and it isn’t, and people are turning from the God because of Church teachings. No wonder true believers ‘fear’ people like the guys you mentioned leading people in the wrong direction, because they are probably leading people to LOVE God rather than fear Him (I have not heard of the two you mentioned in another answer, as I said). But why would he punish you if you don’t convert me to your way of thinking? And how does fear of God make us better people .. fear doesn’t make anyone a better person, it just makes them desperate to get away from what they fear, unless they are insane. One book I read was called ‘held hostage by God’ .. and people held hostage sometimes do end up loving their captors. But God is not holding anyone unwillingly, otherwise there would be no ‘other’ types of Christian religions than the one Paul and his friends created. That’s a really great point for human free will, actually. :-)

            The Dead Sea Scrolls don’t prove God wrote the Bible, Don, they only prove its very old. And all that ‘you’ have there, unless it includes the Aprocrypha and Enoch, is not the whole bible, since, from what I have just been reading, those books were part of the original teachings of the Jewish people, on which the Christian OT is based. And, sadly, a book saying ‘I am authentic’, is like a man (or woman) saying “I am not a violent person’ before s/he slaps you. You have a choice, you can either take it as ‘gospel’ or not. It has to be up to every person to choose for themselves.

            Inconsistencies – how about the two stories of Adam’s creation? I rather shocked my mother last night when I told her that God might be made from the dust of the earth. :-) A self-defeating paradigm. Yes, it was a way-too-far leap in logic, but it was fun at the time. Or were there actually two Adams? Hang on, I found a webpage yesterday that has lots .. I haven’t checked them all out yet (via my NOAB) so some might simply be translation problems .. but there are 551 on the front page, and they are listed in detail.

   I like sceptics in the sense that they can be as ‘intense’ about proving us wrong about God, as I can be in stating my opinion, from my experiences, that God Loves All of Us Unconditionally. LOL

            Wishing you a gorgeous day,
            Love & Peace

  10. Hi A.J.,

    The following Scripture will answer your question regarding how the world will know that Jesus has returned:

    “So if anyone tells you; ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘ Here he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.’ ” (Mt.24:26-27)

    The verse above is Jesus’ response to his diciples question as to “what would be the sign of his coming and the end of the age.” His example of the lightning shining in the east and even being seen in the west is saying that, his arrival will be a main event which no one on earth will miss. Everyone will be stopped in their tracks, as it will be a grand, main event. He also told them that this how they would know the difference between those who were and will be proclaiming themselves to be the Messiah. In other passsages, it literally states that he will arrive on the clouds of heaven.

    An verse that is related to the above is the following:

    “Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye willl see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. (Revelation 1:7)

    As is stated in the verse above, when he returns, every eye will see him, as it will be a main event that the inhabitants of the earth will not be able to miss. Therefore, it is more of the way he returns to the earth and not by his physical appearance. The point is that no else will make a spectacular entrance like he will on that day.

    Also, regarding the Jews not recognizing Jesus on his first visit, that was because of a prophecy against them. Furthermore, the Jew leaders were not interested in what Jesus was preaching as they werer waiting for God to restore the kingdom to Israel. In any case, the events had to be played out as they were, for if they had not crucified him, how would anyone be saved?

    You said:
    ” But I also believe all the other great prophets will also return at the same time – each one representing a ‘house’ of the Father (in other words, a representative of each and every religion/belief).”

    I would have to disagree in that, this is not according to the word of God. All ways do not lead to heaven, but only one way and that through Jesus Christ alone. Jesus said, “No man comes to the Father but through me.” I keep telling you this and because, Jesus is the One who shed his blood. All other men, whether prophets or no, were and are sinners and they cannot save anyone. God will not be accepting anyone who did not believe in his Son. Jesus said he is the sheep gate. His sheep enter in through him. Anyone who tries to climb in another way (other beliefs) are theives and robbers. Jesus also said, “No man comes to the Son except the Father draws him. I garantee you that, all who have and continue to reject Jesus as the Lord and savior will not inherit eternal life. These are not my words, but what God’s word says. I’m just a messenger.

    Here is that famous verse of Scritpure:

    “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believe in him shall not perish but have eterna life.

    “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already becasue he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” (John 3:18)

    So, you can see in the verse above that, anyone who does not believe in him is and continues to be condemned, unless he repents and believes in Jesus and not that he was just a good man or a prophet, but that he is Lord and God.

    • Invalid logic I think for example:

      “Also, regarding the Jews not recognizing Jesus on his first visit, that was because of a prophecy against them.”

      That is backwards thinking. They didnt refuse Jesus because of the prophecy – the prophecy was made because someone foretold what would happen. If they refused him because of a prophecy then we would have a different world where people would be controlled simply by making a prophecy. Its the whole cause and affect logic.

      • Hi CT

        The reason why the Jews ‘rejected’ Jesus as the Massiah is actually quite simple. Massiah, in hebrew means divinely appointed King; a holy king who will lead Israel against their oppressors. It does no mean Son of God rather, a person who is prepared to spill blood for their people. A war-lord, if you like!

        The Jewish religion states that each generation has potential Massiah’s – Jesus was one such canditate who had great potential. However, rather than leading a revolt against the Romans, Jesus’ teaching was much more passive. This was not in the Judaic remit.

        So, the Jewish people started rejecting Jesus as the newly appointed Massiah. This caused a big problem for the ‘new’ religion because everything which Jesus had built up as ‘the truth’ began to faulter. This ultimately would’ve meant the death of young Jewish-Christianity so, in order to keep the newly formed Jewish-Christian religion alive and stop followers from turning back to Judaism, the term Massiah was redefined to the meaning that Christians all understand and accept the word; Massiah means today.


        • Hi A.J.,

          Actually, your definition is Incorrect. Here is the true definition of “Messiah.”

          “The Anointed One, Messiah, Christ”

          And there is only one true Messiah. Here is what God has to say about it:

          “Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ.” (1 John 2:22)

          As I said, the reason that Jesus warned us in his word to watch out for false Messiah’s is because, there is only one true Messiah and that is he hiimself, Jesus Christ. In Hebrew his name is Yehoshua, in Greek – Iesous and in English – Jesus. Together they are, Yehoshua Hamashiach, that is, “Jesus the annointed One.” If there were many Messiah’s, why would Jesus say, “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name claiming , ‘I am the Christ, and will deceive many.” “?” He warns us many times to watch out for those claming to be the Messiah and then tells us how we will know when “He” the true Messiah, how he will arrive and that, in the same manner as ligtning that flashes in the east and is seen also in the west. It will be a main event and no one will miss it. So, how can you say that there are many valid Messiah’s, when he is warning us that he and he alone is the “Annointed One?”

          Also, in regards to Islam, Hindu’s, Scientologist, Hare Krishna’s, Unification church, or any other institution that does not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the only way of salvation, they remain separated from God and his wrath rests upon him. This salvation that is being preached to day is comparable to “Allee, allee oxin, free, free, free! Everybody is saved whether you believe in Jesus or not and whether you like it or not because God loves us unconditionally and so we can come to him any way we want and do anything we want, NOT! No Jesus, no life, period! I wish that I could get you guys to understand that, because that is the truth of what is written in God’s word. Haven’t you read the following:

          “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad it the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” (Mt.7:13-14)

          The verse above would show that there are many ways that lead to destruction, but the road to eternal life is narrow and only a few find it. It also means that, there are more people in comparison entering through the wide gate, which leads to their destruction. Ignoring God’s word and following your own ways or being led astray by false teachers is apart of that broad road and wide gate.

          I keep seeing these words “Unconditional Love” being used here. I don’t know where this came from, but it smells like Rob Bell to me and let me tell you, God’s love is displayed in that he provide a way of salvation through the shed blood of his Son, Jesus Christ. Through faith in him, we are covered by his blood. Therefore, God’s love is dependant upon an individuals personal belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Those who continue to reject him as Lord, remain separated from God and his wrath rests upon that person. You say, “Oh, that is a cruel God!” No! This salvation that he has provided is according his will. Here is salvation:

          “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.” (Rom.10:9-10)

          The way of salvation is according to God the Father’s will and that is through his Son, Jesus Christ. If we try to obtain it through our own means, it will lead to our destruction. The word of God, is exactly what he wanted us to know and it is not corrupted. We can hope and trust in exactly what is written. False teachers have come in and have questioned the validity of his word and by circumventing his word have caused people to doubt and wander away from his truth and that because they love to be the authorities and to have people trust in them. This is also why Jesus and many of the writers through the Holy Spirit warn us to watch out for false teachers and what is going on in these last days is a good example of that.

          “The Spirit clearly says that in the later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceving spirits and things taught by demons.”

          Here is the true Messiah:

          When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others ays Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the other prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my FAther in heaven.”

          He is asking you and I the same question: “Who do you say I am?” If you give any of the answers that Peter mentioned, such as just another prophet or a good man, it is insuffient and incorrect. The correct answer is, he is “The Christ, the Son of the living God.” Any other answer is unacceptable. We must proclaim Jesus just as Thomas did:

          “A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your fnger her; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed, blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

          Our claim should be the same Thomas’ “My Lord and my God!” Notice that when Thomas calls him God, that Jesus did not rebuke him, but said “You believe becasue you have seen.” This would show that Jesus is not just some prophet or just a good man, but God in the flesh. There is only one Messiah.

          • HI Don

            “Actually, your definition is Incorrect. Here is the true definition of “Messiah.”

            “The Anointed One, Messiah, Christ””

            Yes – that is the Christian definition – but it is not the Jewish definition. Just like I said in my previous post.


        • YES!!!! I actually remember that from all my Catholic teachings!!! The Jews actually were expecting a valiant warrior king to take down their enemies, and a “warrior” Jesus was NOT!!! Most of His teachings evolved around “Loving thy neighbor and thy enemies”, as well as “Love each other as I have Loved you” The Jews rejected Christ for this, because he did not come as a warrior to wipe out their enemies!

          • So glad I hadn’t just made that one up, Luna – hahaha!

            Sometimes, I really don’t know where I get these idea’s from …. can only assume they’re long lost memories from me youth ….


    • Hmm, I am just loving Don’s comments because they make me ponder :-) … my Rev 1:7 (NOAB) reads “Look! He is coming with the clouds; every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and on his account all the tribes of the earth will wail. So it is to be. Amen.”

      Having read before and after the quote, I don’t see ‘wailing’ in this case as ‘mourning’, people can also wail in fear. And I have to wonder why they would be mourning because of Jesus coming if they are Christians? They should have nothing to fear – but the bible speaks specifically of ‘all the tribes’, which must include Christians? You would think they would be shouting with Joy! And again ‘all the tribes’, does that include the ones God will be automatically punishing because the “Word” never reached them in their hidden places on the Earth? Isn’t that more the Christians’ ‘fault’ for not spreading their missionaries further afield? And will God punish the missionaries for failing to convert the whole world? Hmm… and did I read a comment here about Jesus not coming ‘until’ the whole world is converted’? I guess we don’t have to worry about a second coming then, because its unlikely all of humanity will be converted to Christianity anytime soon, unless we end up with a ‘world’ dictator (my son volunteered not so long ago LOL) like Constantine (it was a ‘small’ world in his time) .. and even his actual ‘ true conversion’ is a subject of debate.

      Don, ‘your’ God still sounds like a cruel being. What happened to ‘love one another as I have loved you’ .. God must have stopped loving humanity, for someone to write Revelation as the true Word of God. If so, why hasn’t God crushed us under foot yet? More and more people are slipping away to other belief systems. The old testament god certainly had no patience, he almost immediately slapped anyone who annoyed him. And in my understanding, it is mental torture to leave a person to suffer waiting for their inevitable ‘death’. Is ‘God’ enjoying watching believers be torturned? Where is the love in that? No wonder so many people are turning away from Christianity with such a god in command.

      I’ll go back to unconditional Love. Yes, we screw up, but God can read our hearts and minds, and knows that we are trying to learn to ‘love one another, as I have loved you’. It is, after all, what JESUS said.

      Love & Peace

    • Hi Don

      Thanks! Good response.

      Did you know that Islam teach that it will be Jesus (along with some other prophets) who will return on “Judgement Day” but it is Jesus himself who will declare that the only true religion is Islam and only the followers of Islam will be saved..

      If that is the truth of it, that means that you will not be one of the chosen few who will go to God either, rather you’ll be coming along with the rest of us. Scary thought, eh? But then, not a single man can guarantee his ticket to heaven (from the Christian/Islamic viewpoint, that is.)


  11. Hi Caretaker,

    Whatever way you want to look at it, the prophecy was made that they would reject the Messiah and they did. “Behold, I lay a stumbling block in Zion.” Regarding Israel it is written:

    “He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, not turn–an I would heal them.”

    Notice who is doing the blinding. There are many more Scriptures to this effect, but you get the point. Is it not written, “I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy and compasion upon whom I will have compassion.” “?”

    • The angels still teach us to listen/understand with our hearts. I had wondered where that came from, but now I’ve found it. Thank you, Don.

      Love & Peace

  12. Hi Ama,

    Something very important to remember Ama is that, God is Sovereign, that is, he can do whatever he wants and doesn’t need to give account of himself to his creation, whether to angels or mankind. Everything that God does is according HIS WILL, not ours. In regards to what you said “your’ God still sounds like a cruel being,” he does as he pleases and he doesn’t answer to anyone! What do you think about what Jesus said to his disciples regarding God?:

    “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.” (Mt.10:28)

    God’s mercy extends to those who fear him from generation to generation. Do you think that God is going to care what you want or what you think? Do think that he is going to bend his ways to satisfy yours or anyone elses beliefs? No, he’s not! We need get with His plan of salvation and not our own or anyone elses and these are contained in his word. What is happening today is that people are abandoning the truth of God’s word because they don’t want to do it God’s way and so they folllow after teachers that are saying what they want to hear and the way they want to hear it, turning away from the truth, which is also fulfilling prophecy in that, it is written that in the last days men will not put up with sound doctrine. This is exactly why all of these false teachers like Hank Hannagraff and Rob Bell have so many followers, but God does not change. Salvation is there if it is done according to God’s will, which only comes through his Son, otherwise, a person remains separated from him. God’s love is displayed in that, he sent his Son to make atonement for us by the shedding of his blood, as I said, no Jesus, no salvation.

    In regards to the end days, the church will not be here, for they will have been resurrected and caught up off this earth (1 Thes.4:13-18) prior to God’s wrath being poured out, for we are not appointed to suffer his wrath. The people who will be mourning will be those who have rejected Christ and will have worshiped the beast, his image and who will have received his mark and that becasue, at that time they will see him coming. The believers that will be here are those great tribulation saints who will have confessed Christ during that time of wrath, but will be exposed to the plagues and the tribulation that occurs at the hands of the beast and the false prophet, who will be put to death because of their testimony of Jesus, the word of God and becasue they will not worship the beast, his image or receive his mark.

    You said:
    “Is ‘God’ enjoying watching believers be torturned”

    The things that happen to people on earth are the result of sin, period. Those who are in Christ who suffer for his name sake and the word of God are blessed in that their rewards are great in heaven. There would be no more honorable way to die then keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, for we are called to be ready to do give up our lives for him. Consider Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, when Nebuchadnezzar built a 90 ft. statue of pure gold and ordered that whenever the people heard the sound of all kinds of music playing, everyone was to fall to their knees and worship the image. Anyone who would not perform this was to be thrown into a blazing funace. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, being of the exiles from Israel, because they feared their God and worshiped him only, they chose the blazing fire rather than sin against God by worshiping an idol. Because of this, Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, had the furnace heated up 8 times hotter than usual and threw them in. But because of their faith, God interveined and was in the blazing fire with them and when they came out, there was not a hair of head that was singed, nor did they even smell of fire on them. (Dan.3)

    I don’t know why I should be suprised at so much resistance, because even those people who will be experiencing God’s wrath directly in those last days will still refuse to repent and give God the glory, as can be seen after the 6th trumpet where a third of the earth’s population will have been killed:

    “The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood–idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Not did they repent of their murders, their socery, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

    “The fouth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.”

    “The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and because of their sores, but they refused to repen of what they had done.” (Rev.16:10-11)

    So, I souldn’t expect people to change their ways just because I proclaim the truth of God’s word, when they won’t even repent in those days when God begins pouring out his wrath directly upon them.

    • Hi Don, :-)

      You know, I agree with you, being Christian – God is sovereign and he can do whatever he wants .. that’s where the agreement ends. Personally, I have yet to see God ‘do’ anything at all in this lifetime. It’s not that I’m not looking – because I like miracles as much as the next person, its just that I believe His biggest gift to us, apart from Christ, was the right to choose our own destiny, in whichever direction we wanted to go – and Him doing anything we didn’t ask for first, would break that agreement between us all. But this conversation we are all having is providing great fodder for my blog. LOL

      Making the excuse that God’s free will is a good reason for him to be cruel is appalling, in my opinion. If we are supposed to emulate God then we should not be punished for murder, torture – mental and physical, sending demons to harass people, drowning people .. that’s just off the top of my head. How about what happened to Job? According to your beliefs, God ALLOWED Satan (for want of a better name) to harass a person of true Faith as a TEST. If He allowed it for that man, what is He ‘allowing’ for people like you and me?

      Now, drowning me in quotes is just griss for my mill. I check them in my NOAB which
      I got at my Theology University course a few years ago (and just ordered the new edition a few days ago (yippee!)). I don’t fault ‘you’ on your bible’s translation since you didn’t actually write it yourself (nor did God), but I do have to wonder at some of them – that’s why I point them out and like to discuss things.

      I have a question – how can one person fear God from ‘generation to generation’. They don’t live more than one lifetime according to Christian belief? Taken literally this could be a comment about multiple lifetimes (reincarnation), but I’ll leave that one alone for now.

      Do I think God doesn’t care what I do or think? Don’t be daft. Of course He does. He’s omnipresent and loves everyone and Christians believe He listens to us – otherwise what is the point of praying and asking for help??? Do you really believe that God doesn’t love you? That all He wants is you to FEAR Him? What a power trip for God! Sounds more like Satan to me. So does your quote .. ‘fear him who can destroy both soul and body ‘in hell’. God is not in hell, Don, Satan is. No wonder I say this book is confusing.

      I don’t know the men you mentioned, I don’t watch Christian television. I do agree, however, that with the Christ and Jesus we would not have found salvation. The reason I separate the two beings is that Christ descended over Jesus at his Baptism by John in the river. They were joined then. Before that they were two separate entities – otherwise why write it like that?

      If this is end times, Don, as some people believe, then the good are already being pulled from the earth, by so-called ‘natural’ disasters – which traumatise those left behind. Is this God’s punishment on all of us, because you will notice you are still here writing to us and complaining that we are not paying attention. Well, mate, I’m paying attention, so are some of the others, we simply don’t agree with your interpretation of the Book. And since its such a trial for you, and I will miss you and all the other true believers when you are gone .. the door is that way! -> And I say that with kindness. I would really not be happy to have you continue in your pain. As I have said so many times before, on this site, and many others – this is a paranormal site, not a place for missionaries to vent their judgments on us. And I write here, and help people here, because the Church has abandoned some of them, or terrified them, or told them they are insane.

      Who was it that probably said – I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians? Oh yes, Gandhi.

      Love & Peace

      • Loved it!

      • Ama,

        You said:
        “I have a question – how can one person fear God from ‘generation to generation’. They don’t live more than one lifetime according to Christian belief? Taken literally this could be a comment about multiple lifetimes (reincarnation), but I’ll leave that one alone for now.”

        Are you for real?! Let’s look at the verse:

        “God’s mercy extends to those who fear him from generation to generation.”

        So, regarding the verse above, how did you arrive at the conclusion that the verse is referring to only one individual? Do you see the word “Those” in the verse? “Those” means that “anyone” who fears God throughout any generation, he extends his mercy to them. I can’t believe that I am teaching grammar 101!

        • Sorry, I went ghostbusting, and he left before I could answer. :-(

          Love & Peace

      • Hi Ama

        “I have a question – how can one person fear God from ‘generation to generation’. They don’t live more than one lifetime according to Christian belief? Taken literally this could be a comment about multiple lifetimes (reincarnation), but I’ll leave that one alone for now.”

        LOL! I actually read that as meaning ‘through the generations’, handed down from father to son and so on and so forth. ‘One person’ being say, me, which has been handed down to me from my parents and which I will hand down to my children …. if I was brought up to fear God, that is. Which I don’t.

        A great post!


        • Hi AJ,

          Yes, gen to gen, means moving through time, but in my odd ‘Terry Pratchett’ moment, it meant something entirely different …

          In anthropology a ‘generation’ is a group of people who were born in a designated number of years .. how many varies, but say 3 – 10 years?

          In metaphysics there is a belief that we all reincarnate within the same group over and over .. say within a few years of each other (but its not always so).

          So when I read ‘those who fear him from generation to generation’ I automatically turned the ‘those’ into a family group, and saw them reincarnating together many times. Fearing God comes from other people’s opinions, as you said, it doesn’t happen automatically – someone has to tell us its the ‘right’ thing to do. With me, no one ever did .. and then there is what I ‘remember’ ‘from generation to generation’ (or lifetime to lifetime). Yes, I went to ordinary churches as I grew up, but the ‘fear’ bit never made sense. God is Love, afterall.

          I enjoyed your discussions with Don too, AJ. And everyone’s comments. Perhaps one day we’ll get some people here are prepared to enjoy our madness. LOL

          Love & Peace
          Ama :-)

          • T Pratchett is my #1 favorite author. Read many of his books. My favorite quote from his books is ‘The company of those seeking the truth is much preferred to that of those who think they have already found it’

          • Actually the exact quote is “The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they’ve found it.”

          • God help us if we ever become so arrogant to think we know everything, CT. May I always be a seeker! We have so much to learn – and its such a pleasure in the doing – most of the time. :-)

            Love & Peace

          • Oh! I think Don enjoyed ‘our madness’ for the most part too, Ama, otherwise he would not have spent so much time and effort explaining things from his viewpoint to ‘the lost’. I start to lose interest when words are being used as weopons, but using scripture as a way to explain oneself is something quite different and is both fascinating and informative – whether I end up agreeing with their interpretation or not.

            Besides ……….. I’m sure JK will be along soon enough ………. to continue the ‘fight’ ….


          • Do I enjoy arguing with true believers .. yes .. but, like Siddle, I am a bit aggressive when it comes to someone telling me what I HAVE to believe, or go to hell?? And I do love it when they quote scripture at me. I have such fun checking stuff out, and boggling at the changes, and then it leads to other thoughts .. and off I go on tangents. LOL Trouble is, if they only use scripture, they are relying on the Book to state their ‘opinion’ for them, and they don’t actually seem to think through where it might lead?? But .. if you can get them past that, they can turn out to be very interesting people. I suppose that’s why I keep doing it.

            JK – its nice to have our own resident ‘true believer’. And I mean that sincerely. If nothing else, its a change from talking nothing but ghosts all the time .. as I do it so much some days, privately.

            Love & Peace

  13. HI Lunaterra,

    Only those who receive Jesus Christ have the Holy Spirit. You are completly ignoring Scripture and trusting in your own beliefs apart from God’s word. For his word is clear:

    “He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.”
    (1 John 5:12)

    What part of the Scripture above don’t you guys understand? Anyone who does not receive Christ, neither do they have the Father nor his Holy Spirit. Jesus is the one who shed his blood and therefore, he is the one though whom we have redemption. You guys are blantantly ignoring God’s word and without it, you have no basis for truth. But I have responded enough with the answers provided by God and you have ignored all of them and therefore, I will leave you with your false beliefs. Jesus Christ is Lord and without him there is no forgiveness of sins and no hope of eternal life.

    • Hi Don

      We are not blatantly ignoring Gods words – far from it – we simply do not agree with your interpretation of it.

      We do not have false beliefs, we have as much faith in our beliefs as you. We are as close to God as you. We see the truth, just as you do. The difference is, WE don’t shout you down and tell you your wrong and you’ll go to hell for not bending to our will. WE interpret God differently from you. WE don’t beleive God is a vindictive, nasty piece of work. WE don’t believe God intended us be browbeaten into getting our ticket to heaven.

      What happened to tolerance, Don? Isn’t that a fundamental teaching in Christianity?

      When was the last time you put your life on the line for God, Don?

      I actually feel sorry for you, because you are blind to the possibilities which God has to offer. I feel so sorry for you, because you refuse to open your eyes and heart. I blame those who taught you because they have stunted your spirituality.

      We don’t need saving, Don. I don’t know why you feel we do?

      Still .. if you want to throw your teddy out of your pram because you’ve failed to realise that people on here have very strong faith and can’t be manipulated into following something they can’t agree with, then so be it.

      I, for one, have enjoyed reading your posts – despite your arrogance. Just be happy that you have got that golden ticket to heaven, Don, despite the rest of us perrishing in hell because we didn’t agree with your religious convictions.


    • Actually, I (as part of a collective ‘you’ – if you choose to interpret it that way) never ignored Don, so that claim is false. And yes, I was mucking around with words and meanings .. mostly through the dictionary, but I stand by my claim that the bible is confusing as blazes and needs interpreters to really understand it. That’s not about believing it, just about getting some faint idea of what some of more difficult concepts really ‘might’ mean.

      I do know one thing, when a true believer starts to doubt themselves they usually get cranky and withdraw. Breaking out of our well cemented boundaries can simply be too much of a challenge .. I know, I had to break out of quite a few of them to come as far as I have, even some that allowed me to study Theology in the first place.

      Love & Peace

      • Hello, fellow collective ‘WE’ …… tbh, something eventually had to give and, once Don realised peeps on here simply won’t just accept his word as gospel (no pun intended) without questioning it, maybe it’s wisest that he decided to utilise his energy better else where, to find peeps to convert and save.

        That said, its been a great discussion all round and I’ve learned quite a lot from everyone – including biker Don.

        AJ (also a biker)

    • Last I checked, and if God is a judgemental God and I say “IF,” He is the one who should be doing the “judging” not YOU!!! When were you put in charge? Is God currently absent from His post? Who appointed you to such a lofty perch?! You can feel safe in your little bubble as much as you please and sit upon said perch and throw your stones of judgement at any one of us, and continue to delude yourself into thinking that you are the only one who will be saved. I, myself believe, that God loves us unconditionally, and wants us to find Him, and “seek Him out” as scripture says, but to truly seek we must ask questions, and turn over every stone, to finally find God. Looking into a book , in my opinion is not the “only” way to find Him. We need to trust those valuable instincts and “gut feelings” that reside in all of us, signaling to us, letting us know if something is right or wrong. Otherwise, why did God give us that ability in the first place. The Bible, which has been stated as fact, has been written, re- written, translated and re- translated edited and parts omitted, to the point, that we as humans can no longer be sure, with absolute certainty, that the Bible is 100% accurate. There have been too many human hands all over it. Some well meaning; some only out for power and control. But, just as Ama has stated, you are very much entitled to your beliefs and if this belief genuinely gives you comfort, so be it. I am not looking to convert anyone. If you agree with me, fine; if not, that’s okay too. As I stated before; best wishes to you and may you one day, actually experience the “LOVE” of God instead of just His “WRATH”

  14. Ama,

    Forgive me, but now I feel as though I am dealing with a kindergartener.

    You said:

    ” ‘fear him who can destroy both soul and body ‘in hell’. God is not in hell, Don, Satan is. No wonder I say this book is confusing.”

    Ama, the verse does not say that God is in Hell destroying a person! The verse says “To fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.” How did you come to the conclusion that God is in Hell by reading this verse. It says that God can destroy a persons soul and body in Hell, that is, by casting them in there. However, as I said, you guys are obviously more interested in your own beliefs and therefore, I will no bother you with the truth anymore.

    • Thank goodness I enjoyed kindergarten. LOL

      Don, you and I know what the passage was meant to demonstrate, but people coming new to the religion have to have all the little confusing bits explained to them, like the later comments about sparrows landing ‘apart’ from (NOAB) or ‘without’ (Interlinear) ‘your Father’. The Interlinear is even more confusing given that one might wonder if the only reasons why the sparrows fell is because the ‘father’ knocked them from the sky? (Not true folks, but the sentence is missing a verb at the end, and taken literally its a little odd – check it out :-) ) You know, sometimes I think I have read far too much Terry Pratchett. LOL

      By definition a fundamentalist Christian believes that the Bible is the LITERAL word of God, no errors, not additions, no confusion .. its as plain as the nose on my ear. But, as you can see from my deliberate attempt to find another meaning for the verses we were discussing, confusion is entirely possible.

      Ignoring the 551 contradictions mentioned on the webpage I gave you, please explain to me why you think God would write a book that can so easily be misinterpreted? Do you think he did it to punish humanity for not being wise enough? Or was it the followers of Jesus writing to confuse (separate themselves from) the lay people, so that those people would have to seek them out to explain things – otherwise we wouldn’t have needed them at all? Just think of Jesus’ parables .. people are still discussing how to get a camel through the eye of a needle …

      It’s actually really comforting to know that God knows everything about us, including where we ‘fall’. I’ll remind the next lost soul of that, if they do not know where their body is.

      Love & Peace

    • Don,
      You will “not bother us with the truth anymore”? hahahaha!
      Second favourite: “Forgive me, but now I feel as though I am dealing with a kindergartener.” Bwahahahahaha! (but also, don’t pick on Ama, she can obviously run circles around you!)

      One thing I have learned from this thread, Don, is that if Christianity is (as you have explained it) the TRUTH, then God needs to fire his entire sales staff. The brochure is neat, but the aggressive task force is losing Him major revenue.

      Here is the thing. Most of us on here (if I may, everyone) is seeking discussion. The “seeking truth” part is going to happen on your own. I can get all kinds of information from you, Don, but I can NOT get wisdom from you. That’s how it works. Same goes if I give you verses from any of my favourite sacred texts. I look for God in many works….in doing so, I find information. Then I meditate, pray and process that information and in this find the wisdom

      So, please ……let this be abundantly clear:

      You were not giving us truth to begin with, brother… were giving us YOUR interpretation of the information.

      So now your only resolve is a guilt trip?
      Arg…I know I may have come across as combative, Don…and I am kind of (sort of…..somewhat…..a little only, perhaps) sorry for that. But what’s with the guilt trip?
      That effective, where your from?

      • Morning Siddle, (HUG).

        “The brochure is neat, but the aggressive task force is losing Him major revenue”.

        Maybe not .. its back!

        I found this last night when I was hunting information on Catholic ‘indulges’. Technically you can’t ‘buy’ indulgences (freedom from past sins), but you can give a charitable donation? The mind boggles.

        Love & Peace

        • Morning, Ama!!!
          (still trying to get over the use of your instead of you’re in my last post….yes, I’m insane…haha!)

          You know, I do recall studying them in my first theology class….completely forgot about, indulges in honesty. Thought I was reading the onion, then I remembered ML having a problem with them. :)

          Well, so, I stand corrected. The brochure is neat, but God may be in a position of only mild to fair financial earning potential….provided folks give charitably.

          Thanks! That was great. I wonder if they come in different colours. Or with different saints on the packaging or something……you know? To make it look dignified and stuff.

          (actually it’s evening for me, so I’m off to the city. Take care!)

        • I’ve always thought of that as a load of “horse dung!” They did it in the middle ages and that is how the corrupt priests got rich. Buying forgiveness!!! Even if now, it’s just on a donation basis, it’s still trying to buy God’s love and forgiveness. A sin in and of itself. Why not pray to God yourself and as it of Him??!! Do you really think you have to put money in a box before He would listen??!! The church is really desperate.

          • Uh…well, how else do you think corrupt priests are going to get paid, LunaTerra? :)
            Yeah, I’m thinking times really haven’t changed. I share your disgust, but at the same time, I must laugh at the irony. If good works, alone, won’t get you into heaven, you can do good works and we’ll give you a golden ticket.

            Slightly off tangent — I have always found the concept of purgatory to be quite interesting, anyway. I mean, if there is a waiting room between Heaven and hell, what’s my motivation to progress? I can always just say jazz music was my greatest addiction and hang with Miles for a few millennia. Or would I have to say it was heroin in order to hang with Miles? Either way, the music and stories should be pretty fantastic.


          • Amazing what a little imagination will do. The concept of purgatory appears to come from 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 .. one writer even called in ‘irrefutable proof”. Let me quote it for you -

            “For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. If the work is burned up, the bulding will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.”

            The same man goes on to say the fire is a punishment and that the builder will be saved by the punishment .. but I thought punishment only happened in hell?

            And from that they invented a whole culture of punishment and ‘redemption’ by cash?

            I thought purgatory was only a ‘waiting’ place between heaven and earth – which I don’t believe in anyway. Never met anyone in ‘purgatory’ of any kind, in my ‘journeys’. Dictionary, dictionary …. Ok, I am wrong …

            pur·ga·to·ry/ˈpərgəˌtôrē/Noun: (in Roman Catholic doctrine) A place or state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating their sins before going to heaven.
            Adjective: Having the quality of cleansing or purifying. More »
            Wikipedia – – – Merriam-Webster

            Place of suffering? What do they think hell is then? And obviously there are degrees of suffering .. some eternal and some not. I thought all sinners go instantly to hell?

            Dear God …

            Love & Peace

          • Ama/LunaTerra
            Yeah, that’s not much to go on. I did a little research too…..have hit a couple sites, but started with and it (as well as all others I can find at this time) quote the exact same set of verses (1 Cor. 3:11-15)

            I must say, this was my favourite line of the day, however:

            “And from that they invented a whole culture of punishment and ‘redemption’ by cash?”

            The only thing I would like to correct in your assessment is that it may not have been just cash. It could have been goats, assassinations for the churchor your first born for all we know. :)

            I am glad they have made it donations/good will based, tho. That way it feels a bit less like corporate greed……wait……no, it really doesn’t. Never mind. haha!

            I kind of like our little tangent on purgatory, tho. Think I may have to add that to the list of questions to post (when I finally, flippin’ do that)
            Hope you two have a great day!!

          • Morning Siddle,

            You said – “The only thing I would like to correct in your assessment is that it may not have been just cash. It could have been goats, assassinations for the church or your first born for all we know”.

            Hmm… I see you have been reading ‘church history’ too. :-) And yes, over the millenia boys were dedicated to the church, before they had a chance to say no. One prison is much like another, in my opinion.

            Love & Peace

  15. Wow! Who would have thought this discussion could go on so long? I’ve been keeping up with the thread, and I’m actually pretty impressed at the level of discussion that this question has stirred. Can’t say I’m all that surprised with the disagreements though.
    Disagreement is to be expected when imperfect people get together. Each one of us is on a journey of faith, and none of us is perfect in what we believe and do. We are all influenced by pride, selfishness at one time or another, am I right? None of us like to be told that we are wrong, or mistaken in our beliefs, let alone sinful in our actions. We all have a natural tendency to protect and defend ourselves against attack, and to be critical or judgmental in our assessment of others. But disagreement, like all conflict in our lives, is actually an opportunity for maturity and growth. It may also be an opportunity for us to discover God’s truth on a particular issue; to learn that we may be wrong and others right, or vice versa.

    Every person is different; we have different personalities, temperaments, gifts, passions, strengths and weaknesses. And each of us brings to every human interaction the baggage of past experience, as a result of our family backgrounds and the life situations we have faced. We all have our own unique ways of responding to disappointment, criticism, threats, opportunities and conflict. Disagreement often occurs simply as a result of people different from one another clashing. Opposites do not always attract, and many disagreements, especially those where emotions become inflamed, could avoid escalating into real conflict if we were more understanding of each other’s differences.

    We need first to know ourselves, and to be aware of how this influences both the things we regard as most important and also the way that we react in pressured situations. We need to appreciate and be thankful for the people we are, but also to be aware of our own failings and weaknesses. This will help us in being more understanding of those who are different from us, and more forgiving of their faults.

    *Takes a breath*

    Whew! Sorry to be so long-winded, it’s just that I’ve thought about this a lot lately and realized that perhaps I was stirring the pot a bit more than I should have been. The more I thought about my own actions (and those of a few others) the more it bothered me. Don’t get me wrong, I love a good debate just as much as the next person….I just think in this case, maybe it’s time that we agree to disagree. Or not, it’s all personal choice really, I just hate seeing things escalate into people picking at each other, instead of the issues at hand, and I am just as guilty of that as anyone else.


    • Truthfully, I don’t think anyone is as long-winded as us biblical folk .. so write what you like, to any length, and I promise to read it, because it always seems to be excellent. :-)

      And what you have written here is very true, and I was thinking much the same myself. I wish I could say that ignoring the bible enthusiasts would stop them posting things, but .. its not in my experience.

      Since the protagonist has withdrawn, silence might descend here .. but only until the next time. Hmm…

      Love & Peace

    • This is very true Diana. I also think, that at times, we get out of hand because,(as you have stated before) religion and faith are very personal things and we all get on the “defensive” protecting what we believe, because it trully feels like a personal attack on us. You are absolutely correct in stating that we all must remember to keep in mind that, most, if not all of us, will walk away from these conversations holding on to our own beliefs. I believe, (and hope these forums continue in this direction) that the question and answer forum has been a great tool to discuss different beliefs, and have been a tool to build tollerance among many. Even those who come in with a “different intention or belief” can be learned from. As Ama has said to me before, “the study of religions will either make or break your faith in in religion and it is true. The more answers you seek for certain questions only leads you to ask more questions. I would definitely like to thank everyone of the commenters who have posted on here; you keep me asking the questions and providing us all with your knowledge and beliefs, that bring me,and many others, closer to God and stronger in our faith.

  16. There is scripture and then there is interpretation.

    How should we interpret John 10:34 and Psalms 82:6 ?

    Are we gods?

    • Good morning, BrotherS.

      Very interesting. Thank you! :-) Gee, I am glad I did the psalm first .. what an odd interpretation ‘John’ has given this one. How can a mortal be a god, but die ‘like a mortal’ if they are not two separate forms of beings? Read on …

      For the benefit of those folks who cannot bear to pick up a bible …

      John 10:34 “Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, “I said, you are gods’?” This was said by Jesus to justify him calling himself the son of God (all humans are gods?) after they demanded he tell them if he was the Messiah or not, and then they wanted to stone him for blasphemy because they refused to believe him. Where does the saying come from –

      Psalms 82:6 I say, “You are gods, children of the Most High, all of you;”

      This one is easy .. read the first line of the Psalm “God has taken his place in the ‘Divine’ Council”; and line 7 “nevertheless, you shall die like mortals and fall like any prince”. In other words, whomever is judging/speaking (it is not God because the being speaking the psalm is asking the question ‘how long will you judge unfairly’) is not talking ‘to’ mortals, but ‘about’ them, and these ‘gods’ were either members of the council, or appearing in front of them, so they are more-than-likely angels, given the only other ‘God created’ beings, that we are aware of, are elementals, and they are planet bound and did not fall to be so. I am speculating, of course, but the prince reference could have been about ‘Lucifer/Satan/Samael .. so this might make it the 2nd or 3rd fall of angels. So no, in this one humans are not gods.

      That was fun. :-)

      Love & Peace

      • Fascinating interpretation, and in a way your answer brings us back full circle to the original question of this thread regarding fallen then risen angels. Thank You Ama

        • Hmmm.. would you please explain how you see that, BrotherS? And, perhaps why you asked the question in the first place?

          Love & Peace

          • I see our human form as a temporary vessel, within which is our eternal self. Because of the “I told you” phrase I hadn’t considered that the verses could include angels; it would seem that (eternal souls in) humans were being addressed. We are often called the children of God as well. When we are told to be like Jesus in all ways, I would think that includes be able to someday say, “I and the Father are one”, not to mean that we are God but that we are one with God and eventually each other.

        • The ‘I told you’ phrase .. do you mean ‘I say’ or ‘I said’? .. Shows what a small change in the wording can do to the meaning of a sentence. I wish I could find the one where the modern placement of a ‘comma’ changed the entire meaning of the message. (Ancient Hebrew has no punctuation .. at all). I sat and stared at it for a long while when I first found it, but I didn’t write the chapter/verse in the front of my bible the way I do these days. LOL

          We are all creations of God, only the angels, in my experience (conversations) don’t call God ‘Father’, they call it Abba – which means, for the Michael, Creator Protector, for the Raphael, Creator Healer, etc. And yes, our eternal spirits are housed in these bodies which are only temporary structures, and given to wearing out LOL.

          (IMHO) We are one with God, BrotherS, think about it. God created it all, and is in everything, including all of us, whether we believe it or not. We choose to feel we are separated because it gives us a sense of autonomy, but with God in our cells .. how are we separated? It’s a head thing – and a control factor by people who use it to keep us all from seeing who we truly are .. as you say .. Children of God. In the blink of an eye God could appear before each of us and say ‘come Home’ and we’d go. The pain we all feel (mind, body or spirit) is from keeping ourselves ‘away’ from that connection. But this will turn into a essay .. so I’ll stop now. LOL

          Thank you. :-)
          Love & Peace

  17. You’re right:, it’s “I said” …

    Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

    And I agree that our separation from God and each other is an illusion, but we are inching forward toward removing it, which is why I say that I am both your brother and your self.

    • You may tell us what chapter and verse – no need to link to a pdf with the quote in it or whatever that was. Or you could post the verse in question in your comment.

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