Is There A Right One?

In light of all the different beliefs and teachings I’ve been reading on this site, a question crossed my mind. How do we know that there isn’t one correct religion? There isn’t one way to worship God? Most do believe there is a higher power. Don’t you think God wants his worship a certain way?

Reason why I ask was because my friend showed me these scriptures in Matthew chapter 7: 13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.’ Then, 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.”

He basically said that through these scriptures that there is one way God wants his worship to be. Those that practice from there our inclinations, who profess to worship God, will be rejected. What do you’ll think?

Asked by Ted Heard

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129 Comments
  1. Hi Ted Heard

    The simple answer is; There is no one correct religion.

    Religions are full of human intervention. Full of human misinterpretation. Full of human misrepresentation. Full of human frailty.

    Better to rely on your Faith in God, rather than the teachings of men. No religion will ‘teach’ you Faith, because Faith is found in your own heart.

    AJ
    x

    • To A.J.
      These scriptures are from the Bible, so….. Is the bible wrong? Obviously it speaks of two roads, one that leads to destruction that many are on, and a second road leading to eternity. Simple enough. Then the latter, those who call on the name of God, he says “I never knew you.” Clear as crystal. So I thought. You say we should rely on faith. Okay, how does somebody do that if they don’t know God? I’m sure faith plays a big part in religion, but how is it you build on that faith from nothing. I would think that’s where the bible comes in, right?
      Or do we even need the bible? If the bible serves no importants to us, why don’t we just toss it? I heard some people say, “Oh some parts of the bible are accurate.” Since when is it okay to pick and choose? They are no better than those people, who are accused of changing or misinterpreting the bible to their own inclinations. If we don’t need the bible, toss it. If so, accept it all. The only way I can think of it is when you’re exercising. It’s hard work, need to be committed. You need to eat right, have an exercise routine. Basically it’s a lifestyle. You can’t say, ‘oh Ill lift weights but not do cardio. Or Ill exercise hardcore, but I can eat whatever I want.” You won’t improve or reach your goal. You need to do everything and all to get the results you want. That’s the only way I can understand it. Picking and choosing is the same as flip-flopping in my opinion.

      • Hello Ted, :-)

        I love the bible stuff. Here’s my thoughts from your comment.

        Is the bible wrong? Which bit? The bit we can prove has been reinterpreted, or mistranslated? Surely you will admit that the bible has been mistranslated. Theologians around the world agree on this .. are they all wrong? If it hasn’t been mistranslated, why do so many of the bibles I have here say different things under the same chapters and verses? That’s not hard to prove .. just do a google search for any verse and see for yourself.

        Two road – light and dark .. is that why people are so black and white about things? Or why the good guys wear white hats in most of the cowboy movies I watched as a child? What happened if they put on black hats, did they become bad guys? What happened when all they could get (these days) is green or grey?

        I went to bed last night thinking about your message and asking God to talk to me about shades of grey .. in other words, not seeing things only as black and white. This morning when I woke up my head was instantly full of ideas, such as the wars your country (I’m assuming you are in America .. forgive me if I am wrong) and mine are fighting at the moment. The idea was ‘when is murder not murder’ .. just after 20 people have been killed by the people they think they are helping (3 of them Australians)? You see, our victims were murdered, but when the same happens to people like Bin Laden and Gaddafi .. its described as justifable homocide? Did you see the headlines where Gaddafi’s son will only give himself up to the world Court .. I think he knows that anyone else will probably kill him because he ‘fought back’, even though he didn’t have a gun.

        I agree faith needs to find its basis in something – but throwing away the bible, just because its not trustworthy anymore, would also seem to be counterproductive. Can’t we simply do what we are already doing, and let the Theologians dig into the history of this book and show us the foundation of our faith. It’s a bit like not shooting your car when it breaks down .. instead we take it to a mechanic and have them repair it. So the theologians ‘repair’ the bible by taking it back to its original form, and show us the belief systems of the people who created it, and from that we will learn more about ourselves, and God .. than chucking the book in the bin and abandoning God. As I’ve said many times before, there’s some really good stuff in that book .. mistranslations and all.

        If I based my faith in the Bible, I would be very confused. To start with I have to fear a God that says ‘love one another as I have loved you’ (NT). Given his behaviour .. (OT .. kill all those people because I don’t like them today and if you don’t I’ll send a demon to torment you – and then there’s the whole story of Job) I think it would be safer to run and hide. His love, in the OT, is conditional on our doing exactly what he says otherwise he’s going to punish us with demons .. so why are the demons hanging around priests like Padre Pio and various popes, and Catholic saints, who are supposed to be his supporters, and ordinary folks like you and me who are only trying to live our lives right, whether we believe in God or not .. did God send them? Personally, I am not demonised .. but having met some of the truly lovely people who are .. what is God thinking??? What did they do?? They have no idea. And some of them are true ‘god fearing’ individuals who never have seemed to harm anyone, that they know of. Look at the kids getting harassed .. what did they do? God doesn’t speak of reincarnation .. well, the bible almost doesn’t .. so what is the excuse for harassing a child .. oh, I forgot .. God will punish people until the 7th generation .. what a wonderful being that ‘god’ is, I don’t think.

        A person who chooses to pick and choose what they want from the Bible might well be acknowledging that there are bits of it that have been changed over time. Hopefully they’ll be choosing more from the NT than the Old, given that the God of the New never threatened to kill anyone just because they didn’t agree with him. Perhaps they will choose Jesus’ guidelines for life .. the Love one another bit .. have wonder at the miracles that didn’t harm anyone .. like feeding the 5000, rather than drowning all the Egyptians during the Exodus. What is the other NT teaching .. turn the other cheek .. I have always wondered how many cheeks a person can have, but Jesus said 7 x 7 .. so I try to live that way.

        Yes you Can say “I’ll lift weights but not do cardio” if the cardio is not good for your blood pressure. I have to laugh here, because I just realised my daughter in law said almost exactly that to me this morning, about my son’s new exercise program. They have a trainer helping them. My son has problems with his blood pressure and has to take things carefully .. so he’s starting with something that won’t seem to hard to him .. given he’s 6’8″ tall and very strong.

        Life is not totally black and white, Ted. I wish it could be that simple. I wish murder could just be murder, and not acceptable, and not ‘justifiable homicide’, which allows people to get away with harming each other in the name of some ethic like “I’ll kill you first so you don’t kill other me or people”. While I understand the fact that my government sends people off to be killed in the name of peace, I don’t think war, or police actions, have ever solved anything – but righteous murder is in the bible, so does that mean its ok with God? No, hang on .. isn’t one of the commandments ‘you shall not commit murder? Maybe we should throw it away just for ‘that’ bit? Or perhaps we can see the OT as a history of the Jewish people, and their teaching parables, just as the NT has its teaching ‘parables’, like trying to get a camel through the eye of a needle?

        Excuse me, God. You know I don’t believe in the second coming, because I don’t think Christ ever left in the first place, but right now I think we need help .. so I’m prepared to change my mind. Could you please send your son, with the correct version of your Bible .. and we’ll sort this whole thing out? Anytime soon would be good. Now .. ?

        Hmm.. no, its not now, or at least not here in my study.

        Love & Peace
        Ama

      • Hi Ted

        “These scriptures are from the Bible, so….. Is the bible wrong? ”

        I’m going to use the Jehovah’s Witnesses as an example here, then you can decide whether or not it is the JW’s New World translation which is ‘closer to the truth’ or the more traditional Bible, such as the Kings James version for example. Or neither???

        The JW’s were founded in the late 1870s by Charles Taze Russell who questioned the accuracy of the translations of the standard Bible, believing that the translation from Hebrew Scriptures in the old Testament and the Greek Scriptures of the New Testament were flawed through misinterpretation.

        So he and Joseph Franklin Rutherford set about organising doctrinal changes by re-translating those original Scriptures. What they ended up with was a Bible which read in a completely different way from the more mainstream Bible, giving new and often opposing meanings to many of the passages within its text. (Shame I don’t have a JW Bible to hand, or I could give a few examples – but I’ve spent many a happy hour comparing passages from my 1992 Hodder & Stoughton New International Version with my JW window cleaner’s New World Bible and the two Bibles really are like chalk and cheese.)

        Due to the JW’s New World Bible being so contraversially different than mainstream Christinan teachings, the Catholic Church have venomously and publicly stated the JW’s to be nothing more than a Satanic Cult, giving lots of so called ‘evidence’ to support their ‘claims’ to anyone who will listen.

        So my question would be – how can any of us rely on the fact that the Bible is the absolute truth? No matter which Bible we refer to? I’ve already seen two completely different Bibles, saying different things because the emphasis has changed in so many of the passages. So which one is closer to the true Word Of God? The original translations from Hebrew/Greek to Latin and then English, or the reworkings of the JW’s? If, indeed, either of them are the truth?

        I’ll leave you with that thought.

        AJ
        x

      • Hi Ted – again. LOL!

        “You say we should rely on faith. Okay, how does somebody do that if they don’t know God? I’m sure faith plays a big part in religion, but how is it you build on that faith from nothing”

        Faith and religion are not the same thing, in my view.

        Religion is there as a teaching tool, yes, but it should not stifle your own spirituality. Too often the religious teaching means you become indoctrinated into a ‘mind-set’ of that religion to the point that you end up not thinking things through for yourself and coming to your own conclusions about God. This is where the term blind-faith comes from. People learn about their religion and its doctrine parrot-fashion, they are actively discouraged from questioning anything, which might contradict the religious teaching. In some religions, too much questioning and you’re kicked out.

        A lot of the fundamentals that post on here seem pretty brainwashed to me. Well, that’s fine for them if that is how they like to see God, but why go round condemning everyone else to hell just because we don’t confirm to their view of God? That to me is like a child having a tantrum, because they can’t get their own way. It certainly has nothing to do with faith – it is just how they are taught to behave by their religious doctrine. Doctrine written and administered by men – not God.

        Now faith, on the other hand, does not need to be shared with anyone else. Faith is a personal relationship with God. You see, a person can only really accept and love God with all their heart and soul, if God presents Himself to them in a way in which they can understand and learn from. God can not present himself to a religion – but God can and does present himself to each and every one of us on a one to one basis. He loves us all, not matter what religious convictions we have (or don’t).

        This is why I think a lot of people turn their backs on religion, deciding to find God for themselves instead, because the religious authoritarian attitude is not for them.

        No one has a monopoly on God, so why do so many religions think they do?

        AJ
        x

  2. A.J. Ryder,
    I disagree. And the bible does not support your claims.   From the outset, Adam was obedient to God’s expectations.  That relationship had boundaries. When Adam cross over those boundaries, he died as a consequence and made it impossible for his offspring (us), on their own, to be acceptable to God without Divine intervention, the ransom sacrifice of Jesus’s shed blood. 

    The bible show dispite mankind’s shortcomings, God used imperfect men to accomplish his will and purpose.    like Abraham, Isaac, Ruth, David, Solomon, Jonah and Zephaniah were not perfect at all.   Even Jesus, God’s Son, taught imperfect men how and what to do in furthering the good news of the kingdom in his absence.  They were far from being perfect.  And yet, they all preached, taught, worshiped and lived thier lives in harmony  with God’s will and purpose.   The fact that God supported their efforts through the actions of his Holy Spirit adds further evidence  of an approved relationship.   In contrast, we did not see this kind of support at all for the religious leaders of that time period, Jewish and non-Jewish.   In fact, Jesus himself denouced the religious leaders of his day. 

    Relying on “Faith in God” first requires knowing what his requirements are, his likes, dislikes, his will and purpose.  Only by understanding all these elements and applying them can a person hope to be acceptable to God. 

    “No religion can teach you Faith” is correct.  But through a careful study of God’s word, applying the righteous standards and principles set out in his word, communicating regularly in pray with God and working in harmony with his will and purpose, one can develope an assured confidence, an expectation about and with Jehovah.

    There has always been and always will be one lord, one faith (not multiple faiths) and one baptism (Ephesians 4:5).  Adam and Jesus knew this and Jehovah made known and clear to the world in his word the bible. 

    Of course we all have a choice. We can side with what the perfect Adam lost or with what the perfect Jesus purchased back. 

    • Hi Steve,

      That’s a lovely fundamentalist answer to the question. Thank you. :-) Luckily, AJ isn’t a Christian .. but I am.

      Love & Peace
      Ama

      • Hmmmm …. yes ….. well …. Steve’s view point is PRECISELY the reason why I am NOT a Christian! I can’t be doing with all that negativity, doom and damnation.

        AJ
        x

        • A.J.,

          Many i’ve spoken with have expressed similar sentiments you have stated. Would you mind sharing why you stated, “I can’t be doing with all that negativity, doom and damnation”?

          • Hi Steve

            Yes – certainly. Will be my pleasure …..

            First off, please refer to my reply to Ted (above) which gives just one example of how negativity reigns between the various denominations of the Christian Fellowship – and that is just the tip of the iceburg!

            It all started with Judaism, of course, who declared itself God’s people. Judaism proclaimed that all those who were not in that ‘club’ (gentiles) would be denied God because God “did not like those sort!” and therefore, as the gentiles were ‘out of favour’ with God their souls were surely doomed!!

            When Judaism split, first into Christianity and later, Islam, the Jewish psyche of ‘got to be a club member or you’re our of favour with God’ mentality also manifested itself through to them. So now, there are three main religions, each believing that the only way anyone can be with God is if they ‘join that particular club’ and that all other ‘clubs’ (formerly in favour with God), were now suddenly out of favour with God.

            If that was not enough, then the various denominations within each of those three main religions started saying the same thing “If you are not a member in our sub-club of the main club club, God will deny you.’ (sigh)

            Standing as an outsider to these various religions and their ‘club’ mentality, I can see, quite clearly, how someone who suddenly starts to worry about what might happen to their spirit once they die, would be totally confused and bewildered by all this club and sub-club culture within those religions.

            If we truly believe that there IS ONLY ONE WAY to God, then which one is it? In the Christian Religion alone there is Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or Protestantism to chose from, not to mention all the sub-divisions! 100′s of choices – but only ONE right one? (Assuming Christianity is the right path to start with, of course – God’s path may actually turn out to be Jewish after all.)

            If only the religious orders spent less time focusing on thinking,
            “How smug am I? I’ve gotten my golden ticket to heaven”
            and more time thinking,
            “How can I be more of a humanitarian and actually contribute something to THIS world”
            then the world would be a far better place.

            God is not about which ‘Club’ or ‘Sub-Club’ you are a member of. God is about loving one another and doing the best you can FOR OTHERS during your time down here on this Earth.

            There is no such thing as ONE ROAD to God. Because, if there were, then by the law of averages you’ve most likely picked the wrong road too!

            AJ
            x

          • AJ

            There was never a split in Judaism. The Prophets of the Old Testament prophesied that that God would send a Messiah to Israel. It is through the Messiah Jesus that Christianity was made manifest. Judaism was based on the laws that God gave Moses, and Jesus Christ is the foundation of Christianity. Christians do not live under the laws of Moses.

            Now concerning Islam, it is just another pagan religion that teaches death to infidels. The god of Islam is Allah = Hubal = Baal. The bloody Canaanite god which humans were sacrificed to. Islam teaches God did not have a son. Therefore, it has nothing to do with Christianity.

            Judaism became obsolete when Jesus was born in the flesh. He became the author of the New Covenant in which Jews and Gentiles could both obtain eternal life through Jesus.

            And of course there is only ONE way to God and that is through JESUS.

            1 Timothy 2:5 – For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ

            Hebrews 12:24 – And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

            John 14:6 – Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

            If you deny Jesus then God will deny you and cast you away from him.

            2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.unto the Father, but by me.

            2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

            1 John 2:21-23 – I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

          • A.J.,
            Well said!!! And I second the Amen.

            (and for anyone out there that doesn’t watch southpark: Mormonism. Mormonism is the correct answer)

          • Hi K. Smith,

            You might not agree with this, but at least read it ..

            Allah does not equal Hubal does not equal Baal

            http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/hubal.html

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • “And of course there is only ONE way to God and that is through JESUS”

            And … as if on cue …. here is a member of one of those sub-club’s I was on about … proving my point very effectively!

            Hi K Smith,

            Your statement that “Allah = Hubal = Baal.” Is incorrect.

            ‘Allah’ is the Arabic word for God. Allah means God. It is not a name; it is a title – just as God is the Supreme Being’s title, in Christianity.

            You stated: “Now concerning Islam, it is just another pagan religion …”

            Tee!Hee!Hee! You really have been ill informed about the concept of monotheism, haven’t you? Paganism does not subscribe to the idea of a single deity.

            Islam accepts Jesus as one of the great prophets. Jesus’ teachings are included in the Qur’an. Islam belief it is Jesus who will lead the chosen to God come Judgment Day. However, you are right that Islam rejects the idea of Jesus being Christ. Islam believes that to idolize any prophet is to go against God (Allah). Islam does not even consider Mohammed to be the Son of God. And actually, when it comes to ‘Sons Of God’, I’m in agreement with them on that point!

            You stated: “If you deny Jesus then God will deny you and cast you away from him.”

            Have you spoken with God directly on this matter? When was He supposed to have told you this? Did you record the conversation? For God to have made such a statement, it should really be a statement for the whole world to here – direct from His devine mouth.

            No – of course He hasn’t spoken to you directly.. That statement comes straight from the mouths of men – the teachings of your religion. It does not come from God.

            You stated: “There was never a split in Judaism”

            Explain why you think that is, please?

            The way I understand it, all three religions look to Abraham as the ‘father’ (or origin) of the belief system.

            Islam takes its roots from Abraham’s eldest son, Ishmael. Ishmael’s 12 sons later went on to form the ‘heads’ of the Arab states. They were still a part of the Judaic belief system until Muhammed who, just like Jesus 600 odd years earlier, redefined the Judaic Lore taught to them – in around 610 AD. This new definition of Gods Word then went on to become the religion we now know as Islam.

            Christianity takes its roots from Abraham’s second son, Isaac who’s son Jacob (Israel) had 12 sons’ who became ‘heads’ of the Jewish tribes. Through the lineage of Dan came Kind David – Jesus said himself, he was a direct descendant of David.

            Jesus never turned his back on his religious beliefs, just the way in which it was taught by the Pharisee’s. The New Testament is full of references to the Old Testament – it simply redefines the concept taught at the time. Just as Islam redefines the concept taught at the time.

            Jesus’ new definition of God’s Word then went on to become the religion we now know as Christianity – approximately 100 years after his death I believe.

            Deny it all you want, but you can’t get away from the fact that all three religions originate from the same source. They are simply variations on the original theme.

            AJ
            x

          • Excellent answer, AJ, and yes it was around 100 years afterwards, then Iraneous took all the different gospels, letters and other writings, and formed a book with them .. removing those HE didn’t think were suitable as ‘God’s Word’. I want to go back in time, and change sex .. because women were not allowed to do anything like decide the future direction of the Christian religion at that point .. and ask him WHY .. and who gave him permission to do that? Did God tell him to? Which God? There were lots of them back then.

            The rest is history .. or perhaps mythology ? LOL

            Love & Peace
            Ama

        • Amen.
          ;)

  3. Hi Ted,

    I stand on the fence between Christianity and all the other religions. LOL My guides, the ones the Christians think are demons, also talk about God. I should tell you, they are not demons, they are angels, and they existed, as God existed, long before religion, of any kind, was created.

    Is there one right religion? If you are Christian, then you think that Christianity is the only religion, because that is what is taught to us by the church. That church/belief system was created by stealing bits and pieces of its ‘faith’ from other faiths, while trying to wipe them out. I have always wondered why people follow a God who advocates genocide .. which Jehovah did in the Old Testament. In the New Testament is the God of Love, peace and healing .. given to us first by Jesus and then through everyone else’s interpretation of what Jesus said and was, or what they want us to believe he meant by what he said .. regardless of whether it makes sense or not .. problem is – we actually have no proof any of it is real. Instead, members of the church ‘demand’ we take it all ‘on faith’.

    Spirituality, which is a collective name for faith/belief in some greater force, or divine being, allows each person to find ‘God’ in their own way. The rules of most faiths are generally the same .. Love God, Love people – show respect for those with wisdom who have earned it. Be kind. Be compassionate. Be truthful. Be honest. Do you think it would be wise to use that list as a ‘measure’ then, to decide what God’s true religion might be.

    I am Christian, even with all the lies, cheating, misrepresentation, hatred, fear and misinterpretations of the Bible, I still love the Book. There’s some really great wisdom in there, from Jesus and some of the prophets .. but mostly I rely on what Jesus said. Why am I Christian, knowing what I do .. because I believe in the Christ energy and what Jesus did for us in dying. I take my other beliefs from many other foundations, but first and foremost they are based in “Love one another as I have loved you”, and Jesus Loved everyone, no matter who they were, what they did, and what job they had. I think that’s pretty good.

    If I had to say what I think God wants from each of us, I would have to base it on my experiences of God and Jesus in this lifetime. He wants our love, our trust, our faith, and charity, our kindness, our honesty, our compassion. He wants us to Love everyone the way He did .. totally and unconditionally, accepting each other, faults and all, knowing that we could change for the better if we want to. That’s written in the Christian bible. ‘Go forth and sin no more’ .. or words to that effect.

    Is there one right way to worship God .. yes. LOVE is the key. Pure, true and faith-filled Love. That is all that is needed. And God is the God of all religions, not just the Christian one. The Muslims call him Allah. Then there are the multitudes of Christian ‘faiths’ that some other Christians see as sects – is God going to punish them for not getting it right – as you said .. which one is the right one? What happens to all the rest of the folks who think they are Christian? Do you think God is that nasty? What happened to the love??? And some people don’t believe in a divine power at all, they have teachers like Buddha, who taught love and compassion. Do you think God is going to send him to hell for not being Christian? Sigh.

    You have Christian friends who might end up judging you because you do not follow their path, but if you will follow your heart, and be loving, you’ll find other people who believe as you do, and find God in their own way. Or you can become like other ‘true believers’, who see the Bible as the only source of divine ‘truth’ .. but in doing that you will have to accept the proven contradictions in the Book .. or ignore them, as so many of them do. That is not finding God, Ted, that is hiding from the Truth .. and God is the Truth .. so where can we hide from him?

    It’s complicated to try and lay down a faith based on other people’s opinions, but its the only way we can, until God steps into our lives, as he did mine, and so many other people that I know of, and says ‘I am here, follow if you ‘will” .. and we have the right to choose to follow .. that’s also in the Christian Bible, but what was also written there was that if we don’t follow we’ll go to hell? Well, I believe in hell as a home for demons, but I have never seen a person there .. but that is my experience.

    So .. what do you want to do? Your friends offer you one path, and you are obviously seeking. It’s easier to follow a crowd than it is to forge your own path .. down the narrow path that leads to God. The wide path is the slippery one, it has to be wide to take all those followers of faiths that say ‘we are the only TRUE religion’. Sadly I think they are building a huge wall around God, or trying to, to keep people like me out .. but it won’t work .. God loves to break strongholds .. usually the ones around our hearts.

    Hmm.. I think I just wrote a sermon. LOL

    Love & Peace
    Ama

    • I don’t identify as a Christian although, I was raised in a Catholic household, with one parent a bit more devout than the other. I found that as I matured and began experiencing the world on my own, a lot of things I had been taught didn’t make much sense. Its far too long of a list for me to go into detail but, let’s just say that the inconsistencies were glaring in my opinion.

      I don’t think there is one “right” way to worship God. I believe that living our life with love is the biggest step we can take to showing God that our faith in him is strong. After all, love comes from the heart, as does faith. It also takes faith to love. So I find that those two things make the whole of what life is really about. And I don’t think I need to sit in a church pew every Sunday listening to a priest for God to know that I know he exists, that he is part of me, and that I think of him as an integral part of my life….I mean, he is the one that gave it to me. But that is the way that I choose to worship, others choose different ways. I don’t think my way is better…it’s just MINE. So people may need that sermon every Sunday to feel a connection to God…some don’t.

      What I’m getting at here, without becoming too long winded is that God is EVERYWHERE. He is a part of EVERYONE. Showing love for his children and having a respect for the life he has given us is worship in and of itself.

      • Diana,
        “I don’t think there is one “right” way to worship God.”

        Have you ever thought about why the words righteousness, righteous and obedience are used in association with a relationship with God and his word the bible?

        • I’m not a Christian so, to me it really doesn’t matter what is or isn’t in the bible…therefore I really am not concerned with it’s wordplay. I do not believe in a God that needs to be feared. In my eyes that would make him malevolent, and I just don’t buy it. God is love and love is God. There is no fear in love. Besides, as I’m sure you know, the bible wasn’t written by God, it was written by man, there’s evidence of that in the multitude of contradictions it contains. For example the bible is called a testament. A testament means what? Tangible proof or tribute. The bible states in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Who was around to witness this and give their testament? No one. Where is their tangible proof of this? If you know of some secret evidence please point me in the direction of it and I will surely admit that I am as wrong as wrong can be. Problem is, I’ll never have to admit that because their is absolutely no tangible evidence to back this up. You’re basing your life on a book…to each his own I suppose…I don’t think I can do that. I mean, I’ve read Harry Potter but you don’t see me at the tube trying to jump the next train to Hogwarts :D

          I’ve never felt the need to be part of organized religion. I have my own relationship with God, and I don’t need others to follow suit in order to validate my beliefs. I know who I am spiritually speaking. I’ve gained that by simply living my life with love and respect for God and my fellow man.

          You don’t have to agree with what I’m saying…I don’t need you to think what I think. I’m not going to thump a book on your head in an effort to change your mind. That’s just not my way. Like I said before, I don’t need that validation. I know where I stand in this world, and I’m happy here. I’m sorry that you do need it because it’s not something I can give you.

          • If you find that train to Hogwarts, Diana, reserve me a seat . I want to give Gandalf .. I mean Dumbledore .. a hug. He deserves it.

            Love & Peace
            Ama LOL

          • I surely will Ama! Perhaps we can all meet up for a friendly game of Quidditch :)

          • Hmm… my broom handling skills are not what they were .. (quickly glancing at the kitchen floor) LOL.

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • Diana,

            Proverbs 16:25 – There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

          • Actually, I think Psalm 16 is very interesting. “The plans of the mind belong to mortals, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.” That can be intrepted to mean that we can think what we like, but when we speak, God speaks through us.

            The bit that worries me, though .. is 16:6 the 2nd verse .. “and by fear of the Lord one avoids evil.” Yes, we do choose to stay away from those things we fear .. good idea. MIght be a good reason for doing so.

            You know, if this was the unerring Word of God you would think He might have written it in a way that couldn’t be misinterpreted? Instead he gave us the right to think our own thoughts, so that we could follow him .. Also, by plucking out bits and pieces from all the writings, it appears God can be made to say practically anything .. and that really has to be a problem.

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • I see the book of Psalms as a book of songs and hymns and that does not mean that they are all completely accurate. Along the same thoughts I see Ecclesiastes as much like a book of poetry and not necessarily to be taken as the truth.

          • K. Smith,
            Once again, I reiterate that I’m not a Christian….so whatever is in Psalms is irrelevant to my personal beliefs. I don’t know how to make that any clearer. You could spout Bible passages to me all day long, and you wouldn’t move me from where I stand.

            I don’t care whether others think I’m right or wrong. I know WHAT I believe, and I know WHY I believe it. So you can condemn me to hellfire all day long….you’ll get the same result as before.

            Insanity….doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. That old zinger really applies here :)

        • Sorry Steve, but Diana doesn’t follow the Bible; she views it only as a tool. She said so herself in another thread. Most of us are lead by God with our hearts. It is impossible to be an unconditionally loving God and damn people to Hell just for not following EXACTLY his way of worshiping Him. If you truly believe that God is a God of Hell, fire, Brimstone and damnation, then you and I do not share the same God and I would take my God over yours ANY DAY!!!!

      • Diana, that was beautifully said!!! :D

    • Hello there Ama,

      I would like to focus on the thought expressed about the validity of other ways of worshiping besides what is subscribed in the bible. 

      Solomon is the father of interfaith. He sought to please Jehovah through other ways of worship while seeking to avoid offending the religion of his foreign wives (wives he was told not to take for fear of what actually did occur).  While he did not loose favor with those false God’s, he did loose favor with Jehovah. This led to the  peace enjoyed by Israel during Solomon’s reign to vanish towards the end of his reign. 

      The only consistency that mankind’s has with religion or worship in general is the need to worship something, be it a person, place, thing or philosophy. It can be real or imagined based on one’s own perceptions and desires irregardless of opposing views. 

      The unimaginable occurs with who or what a person chooses and executes which is all over the map. Even those that do not subscribe to any religious guidance or teachings believe, if nothing more, in themselves as it relates to their own personal life course, influences and environment. They decide their own right and wrong within life and about life. Thus, they have a way of seeing issues unique only to them. As such, it is their way of life, their religion though they may not characterize it as religion or worship.  They are their on god not in the sense of absolute power, wisdom, love and justice but in the freedoms they believe they have in choosing their own destiny without any interference outside from what they believe.  And they they are correct in having the freedom to choose. But the ultimate question is do they have the RIGHT to choose? I have the freedom to rob a bank, to kill someone, to make love to animals, to think my race is superior to any other, etc. But are putting these ideas to action RIGHT?

      Once Satan introduced independent thinking (decision making outside Jehovah’s will and purpose for mankind) and Adam accepted and acted on this new reasoning, mankind was forever plunged into an area he was never design, directing his own step outside of Jehovah’s righteous standards. This is why there are so many ways of worshiping one god, multiple God’s and no god but one’s self. It is confusion, chaos and anarchy. This is what you get when there is no adherence to one set of values and standards. 

      The chaos we as human suffer internally and externally all hinged on ONE act of freedom of choice, a selfish decision, an unrighteous act by Adam that resulted in what we all suffer today, sin.

      Adam paid for the one act. He lost out on living forever (he was not nor will he be resurrected). Satan and the demons have suffered partial judgement with the final not far off. They will be destroyed forever.  On the other hand, we as Adam’s decedents are the only innocent party to a point.  Mankind has been given all the information needed to make THE RIGHT CHOICE. We will either follow Satan and Adam’s course of independence or use our freedom to choose dependence on God’s will and purpose. 

      Disobedience to God’s righteous standards was not tolerated when Satan, the disobedient angel (demons) and Adam chose it; it will not be tolerated much longer for humans that are doing the same. 

      • Hi Steve,

        Thank you, interesting thoughts. Here are mine:

        I don’t really think you think we should go back to only thinking whatever God thinks we should, because he did give us free will.

        Thank you for not directly saying Eve is the villain. It’s a change to see someone giving Satan direct responsibility for humanity’s ‘fall’, but truthfully, I think Adam and Eve already had the free will to choose their own journey ‘before’ the serpent handed Eve the ‘apple’ .. so what did God expect? Why put the tree in the garden in the first place, if He didn’t want us to gain knowledge? It could almost look like God was setting up humanity to ‘make’ the fall, otherwise how did the serpent get in God’s special garden in the first place? Yes, God wanted (and wants) us to ‘choose’ to follow him, otherwise he would have created us like sheep, always following a leader without thinking for ourselves (but, going back to Adam and Eve, that negates the necessity of the serpent, so why was it there), and so humanity already had independent thought, and with that, surely, the capacity to make our own mistakes? The severity of the punishment is one reason why some people choose not to follow God .. but then the story is an allegory and didn’t actually happen. Genetically, humanity could not have come from that one set of people, who bore only three sons.

        And then there’s more about unreasonable punishment – Solomon, who spent his entire live honouring God, and building things for him and others, and helping people with truly difficult problems .. gets punished by the Lord for allowing his wives to honour other Gods .. and doing so himself – at the very end of his life. (If you read other sites here, you’ll see my opinion on who Jehovah is). Did Jehovah punish Solomon directly .. heck no, he punished Solomon’s son. What did the son do to deserve that? He wasn’t even given a chance to prove he was a God fearing person, and change God’s mind. Is God irrational? I don’t think so, but I have no doubt about Jehovah/Lord .. he keeps proving it over and over again.

        I know God works in mysterious ways, but I can’t see him as a villain setting up people to fail just so he can have the pleasure of sending Christ to rescue us all. That makes God seem insane, and all I have ever found him to be is truly loving.

        BTW, what is the unimaginable? And people who choose to worship other deities are not worshipping just themselves. I suppose having a God that judges so harshly makes Christians feel justified to be so very judgemental. And ‘everyone’ sees issues uniquely ‘to themselves’, or from their own point of view. That’s the joy, and trial, of being individuals, with the free will God gave us in the first place.

        There is a huge difference between having the ‘right’ to choose, and doing ‘right’ actions. God gave us the right to choose by placing the tree in the garden. I doubt he expected people to turn into murderers after eating the fruit. But then we have the Crusades, the Inquisition and various other Christian behaviours .. the members of which found their RIGHT to murder inside God’s Book.

        Love & Peace
        Ama

        • Well said, Ama!!! :D

        • The Crusades, Inquisition and Holy Wars have nothing to do with God’s Holy Book or Christianity. The Catholic Church has murdered without conscience for centuries by killing, torturing, raping, stealing people’s land and persecuting the innocent and forcing people to convert to their ungodly religion or face eminent death.

          Jesus led by example and never taught this. He and his disciples NEVER killed, tortured or seek to imprison anyone for rejecting their message of salvation. Jesus commanded Christians to love their enemies NOT saw them in half, disembowel them, rape, rob and sodomize them.

          MATTHEW 5:44 – But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

          The 6th Commandment states that thou shall NOT kill, yet the Catholic Church has killed millions of heretics over the centuries and has shed an Ocean of Blood.

          EXODUS 20:13 – Thou shalt NOT Kill.

          We Christians are commanded to be compassionate and loving. Christians do not burn people at the stake and stand by and smell their burning flesh. This is an abomination to God.

          I PETER 3:8-9 – Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous. Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

          The Catholic Church believes they have the RIGHT to KILL those who oppose their dogma. This however goes against the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament.

          According to Rom.,xiii, 11sqq., the secular authorities have the right to punish, especially grave crimes, with death; consequently, ‘heretics may not only be excommunicated, but also justly (juste) PUT TO DEATH) The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1911 Edition, Vol. 14, pages 766, 768.

          The Catholic Church states that they were JUSTIFIED in the bloody carnage and murders that occurred through the centuries.

          “However repulsive, when judged from the more refined stand point of modern civilization, the barbarous cruelty of medieval penal ordinances may be…we may not for this reason condemn the whole penal system of that age as judicial murder; for the legal punishments, which indeed inhuman, WERE NOT UNJUST.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1911 Edition, Vol.14 plates 766, 768

          Jesus NEVER commanded Christians to kill anyone. Thomas Aquinas who wrote the Summa contra Gentiles and Summa Theologiae stated also that heretics should be PUT TO DEATH. Like all cardinals, archbishops and bishops in the Catholic Church they take an oath of allegiance to the pope and NOT to God in which they promise to PERSECUTE all those who oppose Catholicism. Aquinas was no different.

          ‘Every Cardinal, archbishop, and bishop in the Catholic Church takes an oath of allegiance to the pope, in which occur the following words; “Heretics, schismatics, and rebels to our said Lord (the pope), or his aforesaid successors, I will to my utmost PERSECUTE AND OPPOSE.” (Josiah Strong, Our Country, ch.5, pars. 2-4)

          The Bible is very clear on how to deal with heretics and those who reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Word of God states that Christians are to REJECT heretics and not kill them. Yet, Catholicism teaches death to heretics.

          TITUS 3:10-11 – A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

          The Catholic Church truly enjoys the death of heretics so much that at one point. Catholics received indulgences for EXTERMINATING human life.

          “Convicted heretics shall be handed over for due punishment to their secular superiors, or the latter’s agents. . . . Catholics who assume the cross and devote themselves to the extermination of heretics shall enjoy the same indulgence and privilege as those who go to the Holy Land.” (IV LATERAN COUNCIL)

          How many men women and children does the Catholic Church have to kill and slaughter before its deemed ANTICHRIST. How many men, women and children have to be rape and sodomized before the Catholic Church is deemed Satanic.

          (King Henry IV (1401) passed special laws through Parliament, which allowed “heretics” to be tracked down and executed for not accepting Roman Catholicism (Thomas Armitage, History of the Baptists, Vol. 1, pg. 323.)

          There were also other popes like Alexander IV, Julius III, Clement V and Benedict XIV, each personally ordered and sanctioned torture and murder of all “heretics” (Rev. R.P. Blackeny, Manual of Romish Controversy, 1851, pg. 100.)

          We then have another cruel and barbaric account, this time involving one ten-year-old girl: “The Catholics proceeded to roast a ten-year-old girl over a fire and then killed a mother with her infant, after pursuing her into a cave in the woods” (Morland, History of the Evangelical Churches of the Piedmont, pg. 349.)

          Some Catholics really do believe they are doing God a service by murdering, torturing and killing innocent people who reject their religion.

          John 16:2 – They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

          People in general love to accuse True Christians who condemn the vile and evil doctrine of Catholicism as judging them but the word of God states that Christians are instructed to reprove the works of darkness and speak the truth at all times.

          EPHESIANS 5:11 – And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

          The Catholic Church says Jesus founded the Catholic Church, yet they hate and murder heretics. How can the Catholic Church love God whom they have never seen and hate heretics whom they amongst.

          I JOHN 4:20 – If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a LIAR; for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

          Every doctrine taught by the Roman Catholic Church is rooted in paganism and has its origins in devil worship such as Baptismal regeneration, justification by works, penance, mass, the unbloody sacrifice, extreme unction, purgatory, prayers for the dead are all based on pagan teachings and cannot be supported by the word of God.

          GOD DELIVERS CHRISTIANS

          True Christians do not fight or battle against flesh and blood. We fight Spiritual Battles. Our weapons are not guns, knives or steel swords. Even our weapons are spiritual such as the whole armour of God.

          EPHESIANS 6:12 – For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places

          EPHESIANS 6:11 -Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

          Christians are commanded not to avenge themselves. So the Catholic Church can NEVER be christian seeing that they avenge themselves on all those oppose them.

          ROMANS 12:19-21 – Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath; for it is written, Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thing enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink; for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

          HEBREWS 10:30-31 –For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

          • I have to say that I agree with you on this. I recommend that anyone should read Alexander Hislops Two Babylons. It is public domain and you can find it online free or you can get iot from Amazon if you want a hard copy – The Two Babylons: Or, the Papal Worship Proved to Be the Worship of Nimrod

          • That is one mighty fine answer. Thank you K Smith!

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • Yes!! And while the Pope lives in his own golden city, ddripping in fine silk robes and drinking wine from a solid gold, jewel encrusted challace, he makes his priests and nuns take a vow of poverty. The church states that we should help one another and give to the poor; maybe the Pope should be held to those same standards!!! Sell his golden challaces to feed the poor and hungry and open the doors of his city to them to give them a place to live!!! Geez!!! Don’t get me started!!!

          • LunaTerra,

            Your frustration over the hypocrisy is totally justified. 

            It should be noted, no where in the bible will it state that Jesus was poor. Sure, he did not have his own place, mule, horse or horse drawn carriage. But this does not mean he was poor.  He was known as the Carpenter. This occupation was well sought out and in big demand. The Christ supported is basic needs through this occupation and generous donations given freey by people who truly appreciated his loving concern. 

            All the miracles performed by Jesus were so that people would know that he was the one the prophets spoke about, to draw the Jews attention back to their God Jehovah and to teach the truth about Jehovah’s will and purpose (something the religious leaders then and now still do not do). 

            So, the hypocrisy  you are observing was no different when Jesus walk the earth. In spite of all the false teaching promoted by the Pharisees, Scribes, Sadducees, etc, there did exist as it does today worshiped approved by God. 

        • Hi Ama, 

          You stated,

          “It’s a change to see someone giving Satan direct responsibility for humanity’s ‘fall’, but truthfully, I think Adam and Eve already had the free will to choose their own journey ‘before’ the serpent handed Eve the ‘apple’ .. so what did God expect?”

          “First, it was Adam that had the longest relationship with Jehovah. He was also the family and spiritual head of his family. Eve was deceive. Adam was not. He exercised his free will knowing full well what his God, Father and Friend told him. 

          Second, God expected his earthly son and daughter to be obedient.  Additionally, he expected them to trust him. Jehovah provided the justification for them to do both. They were perfect and out of free will chose they want to be like God, deciding for themselves what is right and wrong.

          The fact that Jesus, a perfect man was able to maintain his intergrsty under much great trials than Adam only proves that Adam as a perfect man could have done the same if he wanted. 

          Lastly, the bible does not state what kind of fruit was eaten. What is important is what the fruit represent in their test of obedience. 

          • Hi Steve,

            Good answer. :-)

            ‘Apple’ .. did you notice the ‘ ”s around the word? Of course it wasn’t an apple, but one of the last intensely Christian people who wrote on somewhere on the site called it one, so I was just kidding around. :-)

            Yes, if it had happened, Adam would have been a complete fool, or a con-man, given that he’d already had a first wife, so he was not ‘innocent’ in the garden, but I can still remember sitting in the Anglican church listening to the ‘Bishop’ ranting about how all Women were evil because of what Eve did, and how she deceived Adam into biting ‘the apple’ .. that was about 4 or 5 years ago, and the man wasn’t too old that he would have retired from his post yet. I always wondered what his wife thought about all that vitriole.

            I guess God saw humans as innocent then too. I admit to being puzzled that God had to test that obedience, over and over again, with more and more severe punishments as the transgressions became greater .. but just out of curiosity .. please explain the story of Job. From memory, he was a faithful follower of God .. so giving him over to the devil to be tested, by killing his entire family, and taking away everything he owned .. yes, I know he got married again, but from a human point of view, the psychological damage to Job must have been enormous, and he was either a truly remarkable stoic, or perhaps he hated his whole family and was happy to see them dead? Doesn’t sound like him, given that I’ve read the story a few times. But it does make God sound like a monster .. and before you make the mistake of thinking I don’t love God, you would be wrong. I do. I also don’t think this story is about the God of Jesus, if it was true. I’m of the ‘school’ that believes there are two Gods in the Bible .. OT and NT .. and they had different names.

            Back to Adam .. he wasn’t a perfect man, or he could not have fallen. Not ‘would not’. He had the capacity to make mistakes .. that’s not part of perfection. Only God is perfect, or at least we hope so.

            Jesus wasn’t perfect either .. unless being perfect includes losing your temper and breaking things, and don’t forget doubting God .. that’s not a ‘perfect’ reaction for the ‘Son’ of God .. who is God, and knows everything that God knows .. according to various bits of the Gospels, depending on which bit you read. It’s there in writing.

            Thank you for the civil discussion. I am enjoying it. :-)

            Taking my aching head away for breakfast,
            Love & Peace
            Ama

        • God does not set up anyone to fail. He offers you a CHOICE which you have a right to accept or reject. Nevertheless, God plainly tells you that whatever choice you make there are consequences.

          The Lord God is clear, you can either seek and obey his commandments and laws or you can follow your own way and die in your sins being alienated from God.

          Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

          The best examples of God’s direct approached is his dealings with the Children of Israel. God made a contract or covenant with them. God offered Israel blessings and curses. If Israel kept the commandments and statutes of the Lord which were NOT hard, he would bless them greatly. But if they rejected God and went whoring after idols, he would curse them.

          Deuteronomy 11:26-28 – Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

          Now what is so hard about this concept? We see from the bible and history that Israel made the CHOICE to REJECT God. They rebelled against him, sacrificed their children to devils, went whoring after other gods and got involved in sorcery, witchcraft and black magic. ALL of which were an abomination to God

          Deuteronomy 18:9-12 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

          As a result of their sins and disobedience, God cursed Israel, sold them into slavery and scattered them all over the world. But Israel was not ignorant. They knew the consequences of their actions but choose to break the covenant/contract with God knowing full well they would suffer for their folly. Israel failed because it was their choice.

          My case and point, Jesus stated he was only the way to God, any other way is WRONG. If you believe you can serve God and Jesus on your own terms you in for a rude awakening.

          John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

          John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

          John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

          I will repeat it again, God does not set men up to fail. God through Jesus the mediator has offered men eternal life. However, you cannot obtain eternal life on your own terms. It is God’s way or the highway.

          Luke 13:3 – I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

          1 Timothy 2:5 – For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

  4. Ama I just realized that I responded to your comment instead of the post in general. Just wanted to say that my comment wasn’t in direct reference nor disagreement to anything you had said :)

    • I didn’t think it was, Diana. Loved your answer!

      Love & Peace
      Ama

  5. Hello Ted,
    I have decided, after reading much of the comments on this thread to throw in my two cents. :D I do not believe there is any right way or wrong way to devote yourself to God. Religions are MAN made; God did not say you must be Catholic or you are going to Hell. In fact, I haven’t seen anywhere that God ever stated that you must follow only one religious doctrine or denomination. The Bible is controversial, at best, and it’s 100% accuracy and validity is questionable by the very fact that there have been so many human hands all over it. This topic has been debated many times over, with fundamentalists on one side, and new age(if some wish to be called that) or just Spiritual God believing people on the other arguing their viewpoints. In the end, no one has changed their mind, and unfortunately, some leave the thread angry (usually, and I hate to say, it’s mostly those with a Fundamentalists point of view who have failed to convince the rest of us to their way of thinking.) You see, God created us all different for a reason; he made us as individuals in His likeness. God also gave us free will. The God that is depicted in the Bible, sometimes, is to me to be akin to a spoiled little kid with an ant farm, zapping some of the ants with his magnifying glass. The Bible also speaks of God as being an unconditionally loving God; this to me is contradictory. You can not love your creations unconditionally and at the same time condemn them to and eternity of Hell and Damnation. I respect everyone’s viewpoints here on this site, even if i do not agree. I further do not expect that I will be converting anyone to my way of thinking. We all must find our own paths to God, and we need look no further than inside our own hearts, for that is where God resides. I wish to all, Peace, Joy, Love and Happiness, and for us all to find a way to be more loving to one another and less judgmental.

    • I don’t think I’ve ever left a thread such as this one angry…mostly a little sad knowing that people are needlessly living their lives in fear of the Creator. I suppose it all boils down to whether we were exposed to religious indoctrination. Some of us choose to believe only what we are told, never bothering to really dig deep and find the answers our souls crave. I’ve always been inquisitive (much to the chagrin of my parents). I wanted to learn by experience, not lessons taught to me by a preacher at his pulpit…especially when those lessons directly conflicted with everything I could already see in front of me. But this is me, and I’m comfortable in my skin. I’ve found that the only thing I can do is encourage others to really dig in to matters of faith and find what feels right to them…and if that’s believing in a God that should be feared..then so be it.

      I can say that no amount of biblical passages being lobbed at my head will change my stance..just as I wouldn’t expect my life experience to change the mind of others. Faith is the most personal thing we have in this world and everyone is going to have beliefs that vary to some degree…and that’s okay too. Just as long as we can all respect and love each other regardless of these things, I think we’re on the right path.

      • Absoluely, Diana!!! I, myself, do not wish anyone to leave a thread angry and I know that you haven’t. I hold my faith and belief in God close to my heart, and feel that, that relationship in very personal to me, as it is for each and every one of us. Diana, you choose to come from a place of love with your comments and I think that is wonderful!! We should all follow in you example!! We are all God’s children and he loves us all and to love eachother is in escence to love God, Himself! Thank you, Diana!

  6. Thought I would provide this to those who may be interested. It is one scholars take on the Bible, and I suggest or you to read it and draw your own conclusions. To me it just makes the authenticity of the Bible more evident.

    http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/new_testament_corruption.html

    • Hmm.. yes it is a fascinating read so far .. I have it in my hand right now – pulled it off my bookcase yesterday. I’ve actually owned it for a year or so LOL

      I just ordered another of Ehrman’s books, his latest I think, its called “Forged: Writing in the Name of God–Why the Bible’s Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are” and “The Two Babylons” that CT suggested (my) yesterday. I love Amazon.com.

      Ehrman is an interesting character. He started out as a fundamentalist, trained at Moody Bible Institute and changed his mind the more he started researching the Bible. He doesn’t appear to have lost his faith in the process.

      Love & Peace
      Ama

      • Yes, Ama!! I find his story a bit more plausable because he, origionally did not set out to discredit the Bible, but found corruption in it through his study of the Bible.

    • Sorry but I mean the question of the Bible’s authenticity!

      • Phew! Thought you’d gone all Fundamentalist on us there, for a mo! LOL!

        • Oh dear, I missed her saying that. LOL

          Love & Peace
          Ama

        • ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!! AS IF!!!!! LOL!!!! THAT WOULD BE THE DAY!!! Geez! Can’t a girl make a typo around here?!! ((((HUGS!!))) Guys!!!!

    • Hi Luna

      Well – this might be one explanation as to why Archangel Gabriel was sent down in 610AD to ‘try to get the message across – yet again’ with Muhammed, as he meditated in a cave situated in the mountains surrounding Mecca. Or, at least, explain why Islam believe God spoke to Muhammed to redefine the Lore, just as God spoke to Jesus 600 years earlier.

      Religion is a funny thing …. it always seems to get ‘contaminated’ in some way, shape or form – either through accident or design. If through design, the alterior motive always seems to be power and influence and seldom about God and the afterlife.

      Guess that’s why I just stick to my Faith in God, rather than having any religious conviction. I feel closer to God that way.

      AJ
      x

      • History has proven that before Islam came into existence…the Sabeans in Arabia worshipped the moon god who married the sun goddess and the sun goddess gave birth to three goddesses who were called Al-lat, Al Uzza and Manat. These three goddesses were worshipped throughout the Arab world as the “Daughters of Allah” and they interceded before Allah for the Arab people.

        The Quraysh Tribe that Muhammad belonged to also worshipped the Moon god Allah and venerated him.

        Hubal is just another name for Allah and it is Arabic for Baal. From my understanding Hubal i.e. Baal was worship by Muhammad’s tribe long before Islam was created.

        Muhammad’s grandfather is said to have prayed to Hubal and addressed him as Allah. Hubal was viewed as the Lord of the Kaba in Mecca. Hisham Ibn Al-Kalbi, an Arabian historian listed names of 27 idols that were worshipped before Muhammad and Islam existed and Allah/Hubal happens to be listed. This proves that Allah was already worshipped at the Ka’ba in Mecca before Muhammed created Islam.

        In the 1950’s a major temple to the Moon god was excavated in Hazor, Palestine. Two idols were found proving that Allah was a pre-Islamic pagan idol. A statute of a man sitting down with a crescent moon carved on his chest was found in the temple. (The Moon-god Allah In The Archeology of the Middle East by Dr. Robert A. Morey, page 6 and Encyclopedia Britannica (Macropedia) volume 12, page 607. Ibid / page 608)

        • K Smith

          Pre-Islamic Arabia was made up of many religions and beliefs; some influenced by ancient Egyptian mythology, some Jewish and some Christian – just the same as many counties today. How many religions to you think there are in the USA currently? Or are they all pagans in your view, if they don’t belong to your ‘club’ or ‘sub-club’? In fact, Jerusalem was a multi-cultural place back in Jesus’ time with people of many religious backgrounds congregating together.

          Muhammad was a Hanif (Hanifs were native pre-Islamic Arab monotheists). The Hanif belief themselves to be the descendants of Ishmael, son of Abraham. Hanif is a Jewish based belief.

          Mohammed’s wife, Khadijah, was believed to be a Christian.

          You know what K Smith – I’m beginning to think you’re nothing more than a Xenophobe who hides behind that Bible of yours…. (whichever version of the Bible it is that you read) so you can justify the judging others without even bothering to find out the facts for yourself first.

          Thank goodness Jesus wasn’t Xenophobic…..

          AJ

  7. AJ Ryder,

    The three major religions on the planet are True Christianity, Catholicism and Islam. Now you determine what is right and wrong.

    ENEMIES/KILLING
    Christianity Teaches thou shalt not kill
    Catholicism Teaches heretics should be put to death
    Islam Teaches death to infidels/unbelievers.

    SALVATION
    Christianity Teaches that Jesus is the ONLY mediator between God and man
    Catholicism Teaches that Mary is also co-mediator. This is not in the bible.
    Islam Teaches that Allah did not have a son

    IDOLATRY
    Christianity Teaches that worshipping idols are an abomination to God.
    Catholicism Encourages Catholics to pray and worship dead people/saints
    Islam Muhammad is an idol and is worshipped by millions of Muslims

    RESURRECTION
    Christianity Teaches that the dead shall rise from the grave
    Catholicism Teaches the doctrine of purgatory which is not scriptural
    Islam Denies the resurrection.

    • True Christianity? That would be very difficult (impossible) to define in a way that everyone would agree (even true Christians) BUT I do agree with you that Chrisitanity and Catholicism are two different things. In fact it is my strong opinion that very few who call themsef “Christian” are anything close. I could go out and call myself a duck or a penguin or even a mad scientist and no one would pay much attnetion or believe me but if I say I am a Christian then suddenly everyone is looking at me and saying “There is a Christian! Look at him and you will see how all Christians are!” If one is not following Christ then how coulkd they possibly be a Christian? They cannot. Hope that made sense as I am in a rush this morning and just rambling real quick

      • Yes, let’s define a true Christian, CT …

        A Christian is a person who believes in Jesus Christ and follows his teachings – but wait, let me check the dictionary

        adj.
        Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
        Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings.
        Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
        Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
        Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
        n.
        One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
        One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

        http://www.answers.com/topic/christian

        What did he teach ..

        1) Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength;

        2) Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

        I can’t see where it says ‘love they neighbour – but only if they believe what you believe’.

        I could hark on about the Laws thing again .. because it bugs me .. but since Paul says Jesus filfilled them, the 10 commandments no longer apply. So Christians don’t have to follow the commandments at all .. so …

        Mayhem reigns .. I guess that explains today’s society.

        I think you would make a great mad scientist. LOL

        Love & Peace
        Ama

    • K Smith

      You’ve completely missed the point of the OP’s question … but never mind.

      Still – now you’ve brought up “Christian’s do not kill” … errr … Catholic’s are Christians … they worship Jesus the Christ. You really do have an odd way of seperating prodestant worship from Catholic worship. Do you think every Christian Religion other than your own are non-Christian?

      Still – just to help you, here is the definitian of Christianity:

      Christianity (from the Ancient Greek word ???????, Khristos, “Christ”, literally “anointed one”) is a monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus as presented in canonical gospels and other New Testament writings. Adherents of the Christian faith are known as Christians.

      Just remember who started the Prodestant Church …. Henry VIII … because the Pope would not allow him to devorce Catherine Of Arragon in order to marry Ann Bolyn. So he broke away and started the Anglican Church. An awful lot of bloodshed insued for centures after that – Catholics killing prodestants; prodestants killing Catholics. Madness! Absolute madness – and for what? So that some spoilt royal brat could get his own way.

      And then there are the Jahovah’s Witnesses, who teach Christianity a lot differently from the Church of England do. Are you going to say either or of those prodestant Christians are not real Christian’s too?

      My goodness K Smith, I’m sure glad I have nothing to do with your Christian Fellowship – all that intolerance would drive me mad.

      AJ

      • AJ Ryder,

        There is no compromising or tolerance in the service to God. There is ONLY God’s way.

        Leviticus 22:31 – Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the LORD.

        Deuteronomy 4:40 -Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

        Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

        Man’s definition of a Christian is the not same as God and Jesus definition of a True Christian because they will judge.

        John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

        John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love

        You said it AJ Ryder, the Protestant Church originated in England and was formed by King Henry VIII, an ungodly, cruel and blood stained man who murdered anyone who got in his way especially his wives.

        Please do examine the Church of England that he founded. It is just another blood soaked idolatrous institution that worships idols and effigies. The Church of England over the centuries has owned slave plantations; they condoned the torture, sodomy, rape and murder of men, women and children. The church of England was also present when the British conquered the Americas, Africa, India and Caribbean. They stood by and watched the British people steal the blood soaked land in the name of Queen/king, country and church.

        It was the Church of England and the Catholic Church that massacred millions of black and Indian children who they forcefully took from their families and sent them to institutions to be raised by nuns and priests who sexually brutalized, tortured, raped and impregnate many of young girls. Let’s not the Aborigine people who suffered untold horrors at the hand of the Protestant Church of England.

        I can list other atrocities that the Church of England and the Catholic Church has committed and is STILL committing but for the RECORD they are NOT Christian churches the oceans of blood they have shed will be judged by God. http://www.whale.to/a/annett.html

        AJ RYDER – If you notice everything that I post concerning my beliefs is SCRIPTURAL and from the bible alone.

        Now concerning the Jehovah’s Witness, let’s compare them to the bible and see what manifests. You decide.

        JW Church states Jesus and Michael, The Archangel are the same person. The Bibles teaches Jesus is the Son of God and Michael is an angel.

        JW CHURCH states – “So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.”—(Reasoning, 1985, p. 218)

        CHRISTIANITY states – HEBREWS 1:5-6 – For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

        JW keeps predicting Jesus return.

        JW CHURCH states – In 1889 Charles T. Russell predicated that all bible prophecy will be fulfilled and the kingdom of God will be established on earth in 1914. Yet, Jesus said NO MAN KNOWS when he will return on GOD.

        CHRISTIANITY states – MATTHEW 24:36 – But of that day and hour knoweth NO MAN, NO, NOT the angels of heaven, but my Father only

        Like the Catholic Church, the Jehovah’s Witness teach that salvation can only be obtained through the Watchtower organization and NOT through Jesus Christ.

        JW CHURCH states – And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation.”—(The Watchtower, November 15, 1981, p. 21

        CHRISTIANITY states – JOHN 14:6 – Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

        JW Church Jesus is NOT the MEDIATOR

        JW CHURCH stated- Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members.” —Worldwide Security Under the ‘Prince of Peace,’ 1986, p. 10

        CHRISTIANITY – JOHN 14:6 – Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

        • K Smith

          “Please do examine the Church of England …”

          I was forced into examining it, K, as my parents made me go to a C of E school. As soon as I was old enough, I ran as far away from that religion as possible. I agree with you that the Anglican Church doctrine is pretty much the same as the Catholic Church – just with a slightly more liberal approach.

          “AJ RYDER – If you notice everything that I post concerning my beliefs is SCRIPTURAL and from the bible alone.”

          Which Bible do you quote from, K? There are quite a few variations on the theme out there in the big wide world. The JW’s New World Bible a case in point.

          “There is no compromising or tolerance in the service to God”

          That can be interpreted many ways, K. I would not compromise God, by worshiping Jesus. I see that as worshiping more than one God, putting Jesus on a level with God. The concept of praying to Jesus instead of God never sat well with me when I was 5 years of age and it still doesn’t sit well with me now.

          But that does not mean I turn my back on Jesus’ teachings. Jesus was a great prophet and he showed us a different way to know God. For that, we have to thank Jesus. But when all is said and done, Jesus was God’s messenger, not God Himself.

          Then there is the matter of intolerance. Wars come about because of intolerence. “A” doesn’t like “B” because “B” sees God a different way from “A”. Or because “B” won’t allow “A” to have their own way over something. Or becaue “B” has something “A” doesn’t have, but wants to own.

          I much prefer the “love thy neighbour” approach to life. Accept people are different. Do not judge them by that difference, rather know them for who they are as individuals and what they stand for. We learn much more about humanity that way and I’m sure God would prefer it if we didn’t keep bickering over who’s right and who’s wrong all the time. I am sure God would rather we helped each other to grow into better human beings, through tolerance for one another.

          It is precisely for this reason that I am of no religious pursuation. They all seem to be run by bigots, who’d rather condemn their neighbour for being different, than celebrating diversity as a positive thing.

          I also stuggle with the ‘literal’ approach when it comes to the Bible. You can quote me all you want to but, as you’ve proved in your post, there are many different translations of the Bible which express different meanings to the scriptures, dependant upon which Bible you are reading. I can not rely on any of them being a true reflection of God’s Word for precisely this reason. The Bible, to me, is more of a learning tool to get an insight into God, but should not be considered 100% accurate because of human intervention over the years.

          AJ

          • Hee! Hee! Hee! I’ve just spotted a brill typo …. even better than Luna’s …

            AJ: “I also struggle with the ‘literal’ approach when it comes to the Bible. You can quote me all you want to but … ”

            I would just like to point out, just in case anyone was wondering … or noticed … I was not inferring I was Jesus … or God … or one of the authors of the great book …….. I simply missed out the … “it to” … after the word ‘quote’. Doh!

            Made me chuckle though when I spotted it though – LOL!

            AJ

          • Heck, I’d be happy to quote you .. LOL It never occurred to me that you meant the bible. LOL

            Love & Peace
            Ama

    • Hi K Smith, you are obviously a true Christian so which offshoot of the faith do you follow, and which Bible do you read from? I don’t remember you clarifying that for me .. but it would be helpful. I am always looking for a good version of the Christian Faith .. and no, I am not being sarcastic – I don’t feel well enough to be sarcastic today.

      I agree one commandment is ‘do not kill’ but before you pat yourself on the back again, for not doing it, and then judge others as not as good as you, have a long hard look at the foundation of YOUR faith .. you see, we all come from what is termed the Catholic faith, and we haven’t grown out of that connection – the majority of Christians are still using the same bible – in its various versions. Look what Jesus taught about adultery .. if you even looked at a women/man with lust in your heart, you were committing adultery with them .. kinda intense, and I think we can apply that to anger as a murder weapon. And then there are all the times, in the Old Testament, where Jehovah demanded that one of this followers kill whole tribes, just because he was annoyed with them. So does that make God a hypocrit .. telling us to do one thing while demanding we do the exact opposite .. ‘In the name of God’ .. hang on a minute, isn’t that the definition of Jihad? And then there are our soldiers overseas who are ‘killing’ in the name of protecting others. Does that justify murder by a prettier name? I wonder how the Christians live with themselves, or do they see themselves as justified by God? Back to Jihad again.

      Also, you must be a Muslim, since you know the Quran .. the group that teaches Jihad .. I’m not sure which bit that is though I know it exists, it has to be from a sect too .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad Yes, Jihad can be interpreted by idiots as meaning ‘make Islam the only religion’, but the founders of the Christian faith had their crusaders .. so we can’t talk very loud. And then there are the Christian world missionaries .. isn’t it there Duty to convert the world to Christianity .. its a little less violent now, but it used to be ‘God’s way or you die’.

      And then you have to be Catholic as well, because you go to the church where they teach people to worship Mary? No, I remember going to one of their churches and being told that Mary would intercede and talk to Jesus for us, afterall she is His mother, if we asked. Haven’t you ever asked anyone to pray for you – why do we have ministers in the church if they are not supposed to do that for us? Why is that a problem? Jesus is still the saviour .. he just has a great relationship with his mother. That has to be good. Or maybe that church has changed since I last went? So please let’s compare ‘when’ we went, and where .. just to get the facts straight.

      And I have another question .. why is it easier to hate instead of loving? Why is it easier to condemn rather than to be tolerant? Yes, you might be the ONLY person going to heaven .. but its going to be mighty lonely there without the majority of the rest of the world .. including a whole gang of Christians.

      What was that joke? I am very vague, and not well, this morning .. so let me paraphrase .. a man newly arrived in Heaven looked across heaven and saw how beautiful it was and how happy everyone was there. In the distance was a HUGE stone wall, surrounding an encampment, and, puzzled, the man asked what it was, and St Peter said ‘that is where they ‘true’ Christians are hiding themselves away’ .. do you think God can see them behind that wall of hate and fear?

      Isolating ourselves from our past does not excuse unacceptable behaviour, and blaming the Catholics for the crusades (1100-1600CE) .. which happened long before the church split into most of the pieces we recognise as the different Faiths today, doesn’t mean the teachings we follow today didn’t come from that same belief system. You can pretend that YOUR faith doesn’t have it foundation in murder, death and violence .. but hang on a minute .. wasn’t Jesus KILLED on the Cross, not only by his own people, but with the help of the Romans?

      I prefer St Francis myself:

      Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
      Where there is hatred, let me sow love.
      Where there is injury, pardon.
      Where there is doubt, faith.
      Where there is despair, hope.
      Where there is darkness, light.
      Where there is sadness, joy.
      O Divine Master,
      grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;
      to be understood, as to understand;
      to be loved, as to love.
      For it is in giving that we receive.
      It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
      and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
      Amen.

      But when we die full of fear and hatred, do you think we go straight to God? Fear and hatred are such negative emotions and not taught as good things to do, in the Bible. Or do we end up, like so many lost souls, wandering the earth looking for something they have forgotten, or turned away from. When God looks into your heart, do you think he’ll see your kindness there, inside all that intolerance? I hope so. Perhaps you are a really kind person, and only spitting anger here on this site .. but so much anger. And why .. because you fear for our future .. that has to be the only answer that makes sense. You think we are going to hell .. otherwise you are on a crusade of your own, to convert all of us heathens to YOUR way of thinking, but as I asked at the beginning, which Church do you come from – because you’ve never said ..

      BTW, you might like to read some of Bart Ehrman’s books. This Misquoting Jesus one is utterly fascinating. He’s found 30,000 errors in the bible, and there are said to be up to 400,000 by some people, and people have been commenting on the changes in the bible since the 1600′s .. I think. Yes, some are simply translation mistakes, but some of deliberate choices to change what was written by people in the far past .. to change what their followers would believe. So much for the unerring word of God.

      Wishing everyone a wonderful day,
      Love & Peace
      Ama

      • Ama,

        I am not Catholic, Muslim or Protestant. I am a servant of the Most High God and his Son Jesus Christ and I acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord and master of my life. I was taught NEVER to compromise my belief in God and Jesus.

        2 Timothy 3:12 – Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

        I stand firm in what the bible teaches and from the BIBLE alone I prove my faith. I cannot respond to everything you wrote but I will respond to why God ordered the deaths of entire cities.

        I keep encountering people who accuse God of ordering the deaths of whole cities in the Old Testament. Have you every heard of HUMAN HYBRIDS. Let’s go back to the beginning. God purposefully destroyed all living things on this planet except for 8 people and some chosen animals.

        The Word of God states in Genesis Chapter 6 that Sons of God i.e. fallen angels who were cast down to earth after starting a war in heaven lusted after the daughters of men.

        GENESIS 6:1-2 – And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

        JOB 1:6 – Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

        JOB 2:1 – Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.

        JOB 38:7 – When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

        The Sons of God/fallen angels hungered for the daughters of men so much they were willing to give up their angelic first estate, so that they could engage in sexual pleasures even though they were NOT human.

        JUDE – And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

        What I am saying sounds far fetch I know, but there are some historians that support the Christian Bible stories of how the “Sons of God” descended from the skies, and married the daughters of men. One such person was a Jewish writer named Philo of Alexandria and his work was translated by C.D. Yonge.

        “And when the angels of God saw the daughters of men that they were beautiful, they took unto themselves wives of all them whom they chose.” Those beings, whom other philosophers call demons, Moses usually calls angels . . .” (The Works of Philo, “On the Giants,” translated by C.D. Yonge, page 152)

        The Kebra Nagast or the Book of the Glory of Kings of Ethiopia is said to be at least a thousand years old. Ethiopian Christians and Rastafarians believe this book contains the real history of the origin of the Solomonic line of kings in Ethiopia. This book states that extremely large babies were born to human women. These children were in fact the product of sexual intercourse between the Sons of God i.e. demons and humans.

        “…….And the daughters of CAIN with whom the angels had companied conceived, but they were unable to bring forth their children, and they died. And of the children who were in their wombs some died, and some came forth; having split open the bellies of their mothers they came forth by their navels. And when they were grown up and reached man’s estate they became giants, whose height reached unto the clouds; (The Kebra Nagast, The Book of the Glory of the Kings of Ethiopia translated by E. A. Wallis Budge, (London, 1932) from Sacred Texts Website)

        If you do not believe Judaism and Christianity account of the Sons of God descending, then the most astounding information supporting the bible was found in the 19th century written on clay tablets by the Sumerians. These ancient people wrote detailed descriptions of how their gods descended from the skies and interbred with human women to create a hybrid race that was half human and half god. Please note that Sumerian civilization was established AFTER the flood.

        Pagan civilizations left meticulous records that corroborated the bible’s description of fallen angels being reptilian and serpentine. All over the world we see the same recurring theme of dragon or serpent like gods that descended from heaven and interacted with mankind.

        The Chinese book called the Yih King stated that dragons and humans once intermarried and interbred. Remember now that the bible states Satan is a giant serpent i.e. dragon. In China the Lung Wang or “Dragon Kings” which were half human and half serpent or dragon were said to be the result of these sexual unions.

        God does everything for a REASON. God destroyed everything on this planet because all the humans and animals were genetically contaminated except a few. They were NOT 100% human. Because of their contaminated genetic makeup, human hybrids CANNOT serve God. They are the children of Satan and his fallen angels. Hence, God wiped them out. These human hybrids were extremely evil, violent, barbaric, sexual deviants, cannibals, murders and sorcerers. They HATED GOD and loved their fathers i.e. the fallen angels. Earth was drenched in blood.

        Noah and his family were the only genetically pure creatures on the planet. They were not contaminated by the corrupted blood line that Satan had established that spread through world like wildfire, polluting all the inhabitants of earth.

        GENESIS 7:1-3 – And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. 2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

        If the Lord God had not destroyed the corrupted Hybrid Race then the promised Messiah Jesus could not have been born.

        Reference to the land of Canaan, this was another cess pool of debauchery and abominations. The giants that existed in the land of Canaan like Og, Sihon and Goliath were human hybrids. After the flood the sons of God continued their sexual relations with women which produced more giants. This time God instructed Israel to wipe them all out and take their land. This included men, women and children. Why? Because they were not human and everything God did not create or plant will be rooted up.

        DEUTERONOMY 3:6-7 – And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves.

        Matthew 15:13 – But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up

        There existed in Canaan a valley of the giants where various types of giants co-existed. These hybrid giants were fearsome and terrible. They could never serve God because of their contaminated blood line so God destroyed ALL of them.

        JOSHUA 15:8 – And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward:

        JOSHUA 18:16 And the border came down to the end of the mountain that lieth before the valley of the son of Hinnom, and which is in the valley of the giants on the north, and descended to the valley of Hinnom, to the side of Jebusi on the south, and descended to Enrogel,

        It is said by some that the giant kings Sihon and Og were said to be the grandsons of Shemjazai or Semjaza, the leader of the fallen angels i.e. Satan who engaged in sexual relations with women. Nevertheless, both of these giant hybrid kings Og and Sihon were destroyed by the children of Israel, and their kingdoms were taken away from them.

        • Hi K Smith,

          So you have invented your own religion, on a Christian foundation, given that you won’t even name which Christian religion you follow? Just so you understand, I was baptised Methodist, and became Anglican by choice at 29. But I started questioning what was written in the bible around the age of 9 years, when the lady teaching our Sunday School said that Jesus was blond haired and blue eyed .. and I knew he had been a Jew. That makes you your own priest, or priestess, but given that women are not allowed to have a voice in church, according to modern bibles rather than what Paul actually said .. that makes you a man. Oh well, I thought you were a woman personally.

          One thing I have noticed though, is you are not very Christian in your consideration of others, because Caretaker did ask us all not to list the full quotes from the Bible, just the references to the chapters and verses .. so you will ignore his rules when it suits you, although Jesus did say ‘follow the laws of the land’ (commandments) and this is CT’s ‘land’. Does that make you think you are above everyone’s rules, except God’s? Oh well.

          Ok, here’s a rule for you .. ‘don’t hang around with soothsayers’ and other fallen people, you’ll recognise it from the bible, particularly when they are obviously not going to change their minds about their beliefs .. you never know, you might catch something from us. I won’t wish this virus on you .. I wouldn’t even wish it into pigs. I feel like hell.

          I shall answer the rest of your message later, it might be in a day or two.

          Wishing you a much better day,
          Love & Peace
          Ama

          • I do enjoy reading your comments Ama! I dont comment back as much as I would like to and I really mean that.

          • CareTaker,
            Maybe you should just start publishing full versions of the Bible on here and just allow the Fundies to post a link to their desired chapter and verse so we don’t have to scroll a MILE down the page just to read other comments!! LOL!! Just a suggestion!!

          • Ama,

            Reference to your post……. One thing I have noticed though, is you are not very Christian in your consideration of others, because Caretaker did ask us all not to list the full quotes from the Bible, just the references to the chapters and verses .. so you will ignore his rules when it suits you, although Jesus did say ‘follow the laws of the land’ (commandments) and this is CT’s ‘land’. Does that make you think you are above everyone’s rules, except God’s? Oh well

            God is my witness and my judge, and I was not aware of Care Takers rules concerning posting bible scriptures. I have been posting bible scriptures on this site from the day I came across it.

            If I had known Caretaker’s rules concerning posting bible scriptures, I would have NEVER posted a single comment on this site because this is how I write. I always use scripture to support what I am saying because it is from the bible alone I prove my beliefs.

            MY APOLOGY to you Caretaker for posting FULL QUOTES from the bible. I can assure you it will NEVER happen again.

          • I will reply to this as soon as I get a chance

          • Why do people always think I am trying convert people to Christianity. I am NOT here to change people’s minds about anything only offer a biblical perspective.

            My Jesus did not discriminate against people and he made it a point to socialize with fallen people, murders, gentiles, soothsayers and the demon possess, why, because Jesus said that the whole do not need a physician, only the sick.

            Besides Jesus is so great, there is nothing on this planet that Jesus that can’t cure, heal or deliver you from.

          • Nicely said, K Smith, does that mean you are going to stop posting? You are obviously intelligent. You can still name chapter and verse, and people will look them up if they want to, which is a lot fairer to you than us scrolling past the quotes at high speed hunting for your comments. I much prefer people’s genuine opinions to drowning in quotes.

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • Hello KS, nice to meet you. :-) You will notice that most of us shorten the full names of people on the group .. its not done through lack of respect ..

            People don’t like being drowned in biblical quotes, because, in a sense, it is forcing us to see things in the way the writer wants us to. It also detracts from the message of the person doing the quoting. It’s demanding that we pay attention to something that they believe in, with intensity .. which is fair enough, from one point of view, but, a long post, of nothing but bible quotes is truly annoying to those folks who don’t believe in the bible. And it doesn’t make people change their minds, as they wade through the quotes looking for what you are actually trying to explain – its simpler just to glide past and ignore everything.

            And as I said, you seem to be intelligent, and we would prefer your opinions on things, and then quote (Chapter/verse) and tell folks to go and check it out for themselves, which I often do. You see, I am just as intense about my belief in the power of God and Jesus Christ as you are .. but .. as you said, I am not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, so I allow God to work in their lives, sometimes through me, but often just because we give them something to think about. And if folks want to argue .. good .. its fun! :-)

            Shopping time .. huff.
            Have a great day :-)
            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • Hi CT, I copied your comment here because its one of those LONG conversations we are having –

            You said: “I do enjoy reading your comments Ama! I dont comment back as much as I would like to and I really mean that.”

            Thank you. :-) I wish you had time to comment more, I am interested in what you think, know and believe, and comparing opinions is always fun. :-)

            Wishing you a gorgeous weekend,
            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • Hey LunaTerra,

            You said to CT: “Maybe you should just start publishing full versions of the Bible on here and just allow the Fundies to post a link to their desired chapter and verse so we don’t have to scroll a MILE down the page just to read other comments!!”

            Wait .. wait .. can I pick the Bible? Can we have an accurate translation (NOAB), and then we can have the Interlinear as well, so we can all go and read the Hebrew and Greek together. (hehe) And then I want the Buddhist scriptures and the Hindu ones, and the Qu’ran, since it comes up in conversation .. and .. and .. ok, ok, packing my quiet obsession away. :-)

            Me bad. LOL Blame feeling better so much better today LOL
            Love & Peace
            Ama :-)

          • Ama, my dear,
            You can have any Bible you want along with the qra’an and the others, but I think the “fundies” are mostly quoting King James.

          • Thank you LT. I have a copy, or three, of the KJ, pity its recognised as such a poor translation (sigh).

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • Something tells me you’re one of those people who has written the bible by hand in their spare time. Perhaps instead of just quoting it, you work on your interpretation of it as well. The bible says lots of things….that can be construed in a multitude of ways. Somehow I don’t think using it as it as a verbal weapon was it’s intended use.

            But, I could be wrong. I’m not…but I could be ;)

        • I’m confused.
          Does that mean you are a “Non-denominational Christian”?
          Cause it sounds like that’s what you are saying….if so, that is still protestant.

          But wait….did you say “The Three major religions on the planet” and then only cite the Abrahamic ones? So Hinduism and Buddhism just don’t exist (to name a few)?

          And wait….did you say:
          “The Sons of God/fallen angels hungered for the daughters of men so much they were willing to give up their angelic first estate, so that they could engage in sexual pleasures even though they were NOT human. ”
          Fallen angels? Didn’t know they could procreate. Wait….I thought it was the Son’s of God….never seen the “/fallen angels” bit. Please expound.
          no….don’t expound.

          Wait…”did you say Come now let us reason, Idolatry = Devil worship”…how, if you are worshipping an idol, could you be worshipping the Devil? Are humans so devoid of directing their own intentions? It’s either A, or it’s B through Z…..right? I am not a Christian…which means I’m a devil worshipper, right? There is no “reason” or “logic” to that….which means you lied…..we don’t get to reason with you…no matter how much any of us would like to.

          Or you could just be full of it……
          Hmm…….
          Yup…..peace out. See you all on another topic. I’m done.

          Much love and good energy to A.J, Ama and LunaTerra. And thanks for being there to educate us on Bible history….considering there are so many others on this thread, hell-bent on doing the opposite.

          -Siddle

          • Excellent comment Siddle.

          • A BIG thumbs up to your post, Siddle …. love the sarcasm. LOL!

            AJ
            x

          • Exactly!! Excellent post, Siddle!!! I myself am a firm believer that the tolerance of life is made easier with bits of humor and sarcasm thrown in!! :D

          • Siddle,

            There were NO Protestants or Catholics in the Bible. Jesus is the foundation of Christianity and he did NOT belong to the Catholic Church or Church of England. They did not exist. Jesus is the foundation of the New Testament Church which his 11 disciples were responsible for after he returned to heaven.

            As far as I am concern there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism. So how can I be a Protestant? The disciples of Jesus NEVER protested against false or pagan religions that existed during their time. To be a Protestant you have to PROTEST against Catholic Church which has always been pagan from its inception. Like the disciples of Jesus, I protest nothing.

            MAJOR RELIGIONS
            I did say the three MAJOR religions because their followers combined out numbered all the other religions in the world.

            SEX AND ANGELS
            Holy Angels do not marry, have sex or impregnate women. But we are not talking about Holy Angels are we. Fallen Angels do not adhere to God’s commandments do they, do not keep God’s laws and commandments. They break them.

            Of course you argue that it is impossible for fallen angels who are spiritual creatures to engage in sexual intercourse with humans. However, there are documented cases from all over the world of people having sex with evil spirits. In Asian countries this sexual practice is called “Astral Sex”.

            “People in all forms of witchcraft, Satanism and Eastern Religions ALL experience sexual intercourse of various sorts with spirits. In Asian countries this is called “ASTRAL SEX.” How does it occur? The physical partner experiences all the physical sensations of sex although the partner is a spirit and not physical at all. People in Satanism commonly have sex with demons.” (Becoming Vessel of Honor by Rebecca Brown, MD, pages 232 & 233 © 1992 by Solid Rock Family Enterprises, Inc.)

            There are some individuals who purposefully seek out demons and engage in sexual intercourse with them. Demons are known to brutally attack and sexually assault people.

            “Just two months before the publication of this book CBS put a two hour film on prime time TV called “The Entity.” The Entity is a film telling a true story that happened in Los Angeles in 1976 and was researched by people from UCLA. It is a story of a young woman with three children who is divorced and raising her children alone. Suddenly, she was attacked and raped by an unseen being one evening. The attacks continued and involved the children and eventually the researchers. (Becoming Vessel of Honor by Rebecca Brown, MD, pages 232 © 1992 by Solid Rock Family Enterprises, Inc.)

            CONCERNING IDOLATRY

            Christianity teaches you have a choice, God or Satan and what ever choice you make you will give an account.

          • Right Siddle, if you are a Buddhist or a Hinduist (is that a word?) you worship a devil or devils .. only Buddha was a man like Mohammad and Jesus, so I guess they were demons too? Ooops .. ok, so maybe not Jesus, just to stop people yelling at me. And I don’t think either of the others were .. but then I am not a fundamentalist.

            And you are right about the ‘sons of God’ thing. Oh why didn’t I see that? :-) That’s an ouch for the Christian church. Jesus is faithfully called the Son of God. So how many sons did God actually have? But you know my opinion on how many gods there are in the bible .. so maybe Jesus is from the God of Life, and the other god could then have as many as he wanted .. but .. the angels names all end in EL, which is the name of Jesus’ God .. so the angels we have around us today are all Jesus’ angels .. and so the Sons of the other God might well have only been, or appeared, male. How’s that for some strangled thoughts before breakfast?

            BTW, thanks for the great answer. LOL

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • You know, KS is right. Some people actually do seek out sex with demons. I’ve had three men, separately, write to me on the Allexperts.com site demanding that I ‘connect’ them with a succubus to have sex with .. usually saying something along the lines that they’ve been told its the ‘best sex of your life’. You can imagine my answer ends up being rather rude. And .. I know of at least four instances of incubus attacking women (two of the Christian) without being invited, and one boy of 19 who is Christian and having problems with an succubus .. and the church won’t help .. not ‘can’t’ .. won’t. He’s been assessed by psychiatrists etc, so have the women, btw, and the church WON’T help. That KS is one reason why I don’t like the Catholic church.

            KS, do me a favour and at least tell us your gender. It makes writing sentences easier.

            Love & Peace
            Ama

        • I said I would get back to this and here I am :-)

          To start with, I am entertained by what you write KS, although you puzzle me greatly. But then most people who believe in the Bible beings God’s word, rather than man’s, always puzzle me.

          I agree – I don’t think you should compromise your belief in God and Jesus either. I certainly don’t compromise mine. “From the bible alone ..” – what happens in your mind when you start reading some of what we write here? Particularly when its written from a logical, or scientific, point of view .. which I am about to do?

          Let me discuss some of your statements from my own understanding.

          You picked a few subjects in which I am quite fascinated. I know far too much about fallen angels, given my work, and the creation of humanity has always been a favourite of mine. I hadn’t thought Noah through on scientific principles up until now, but Noah and Adam and Eve have one definite thing in common .. they are both genetically impossible.

          I’ve done Adam and Eve to death on other sites here on TGT, so its enough to say that Adam and Eve having given birth to three sons, had no female counterparts for them to breed from. Given that Cain killed Abel, there were only two boys left after Seth’s birth .. but still no sign of any women for them to form relationships with and have children. It is no feat of logic then to say that the daughter’s of Cain you mention cannot exist if what is written in the Bible is the only ‘facts’ of our prehistory. It then puzzles me that God goaded Cain into killing his brother. Why would God not consider Cain’s offering as good as Abel’s, given that they did two very different tasks? But that’s another subject.

          Let’s move on to Noah and his family. Him, his wife, and three sons (a similarity to the Adam story) .. this time we do have their wives, hopefully from three different families? Genetically speaking, if they were the only people left alive on the earth after the flood, then within three generations (Noah’s sons, grandsons and great grandsons (and daughters of each), they would be suffering from the many birth defects and genetic abnormalities, and illnesses, that comes from a closed gene pool. Also, according to the Bible, they were still under the curse of original sin, since Noah and his wife had to be genetically connected to Adam and Eve .. being ‘of the first people’, even if they were ‘spiritually pure’. It is my understanding that to have a viable, genetically healthy population, a group should not really consist of less than 10,000 individuals, all not related.

          And then there were the animals .. are they all clones? The offspring of one male and one female would breed themselves to extinction very rapidly, or worse, what if the lion ate the lamb, once God opened their mouths again .. who do they have cubs and kits with then? What were they eating except each other, since in the story there were no animals left either, so all the lions, panthers, tigers and other carnivores had to be either starving to death, or eating the rest of God’s creatures .. including the humans.

          Just a quick thought as I scroll through your quotes – you do realise that using Jude to support the story of the sons of God is pretty pointless. Jude learned his OT along with his brothers and sisters and he was simply reinterating what he had learned, not adding to its accuracy.

          Yes, the OT did take some of its stories from the Sumerians. From memory they also have a flood legend … perhaps that’s where the story actually came from .. with suitable adjustments to make it for the Israelites?

          And where does the bible say that the fallen angels having sex with the animals and contaminating them too? I don’t remember it saying anywhere that Satan hated animals .. he just hates humans. I know you have a precedent for it, but you shouldn’t believe everything you read, particularly when it comes to reptilians and othe folks from outerspace. I know alien space craft are mentioned in the bible, but its not that specific, and the pilots weren’t described as reptilians.

          My recommendation, at the moment, would be to try and keep your belief systems as simple as possible. The Bible is complicated enough with all its conflicts and contradicitons, without throwing a good dose of ufology in there .. don’t get me wrong, I believe in aliens too, but they are not fallen angels, or certainly not in my experience.

          So .. thank you for the chat.
          Wishing you a great day,
          Love & Peace
          Ama

      • I do so enjoy reading your ‘sermons’, Ama!

        AJ
        x

        • Thank you AJ, I am enjoying yours too. I am learning sooo much!

          Love & Peace
          Ama

  8. No – I couldn’t let this one go either ….

    K Smith said:
    IDOLATRY
    Christianity Teaches that worshipping idols are an abomination to God.
    Catholicism Encourages Catholics to pray and worship dead people/saints
    Islam Muhammad is an idol and is worshipped by millions of Muslims

    LOL! There are effigies of either Jesus, the cross, or the Madonna in most every Church I’ve been in.

    Muhammed is only mentioned 4 times in the Qur’an … that is 4 times … yes, only 4 times. A lot less the Jesus is mentioned in the NT. And there’s no such thing as an effigy of Muhammed. They don’t worship the ‘messenger’ they worshsip God.

    Now tell me who’s idolising …

    • “There are effigies of either Jesus, the cross, or the Madonna in most every Church” THAT is the problem :) NONE of those things have any place in a Christian church (according to the Bible which Christians are supposed to observe).

      • HI CT

        LOL! But then, Christians do not live under the laws of Moses – according to K Smith – so I guess it’s now perfectly alright to place other gods before God (worship Jesus instead of God) and make graven images in the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above (effiges of Jesus etc.,). Then there’s issues around elaborate alters and bearing false witness against your neighbour (a xenophobic attitude towards other religions or beliefs (even other types of Christian’s) by faulsy accusing them of being against God …. or Jesus …. or, whatever!

        I would hope that Jesus did not give the ‘green light’ for us to worship whatever we want, instead of focusing on God. I would like to hope that Jesus did not give the ‘green light’ for us to lie about others and bare false witness. I would like to hope that Jesus did not condone the idea of the use of effigies in his name or anyone elses.

        I would like to think that Jesus was misquoted in the NT and it’s just a mistake on man’s part … a misunderstanding or misinterpretation …. because, if Jesus really had said it was now OK to go back on God’s Lore regarding worshipping dieties above God etc, then that really does open up a whole can of worms.

        Why would Jesus have gone against God’s Lore? God should always be the most important part in any religion, after all? God was certainly the most important part of the equation as far as Jesus was concerned.

        AJ
        x

        • If they lived under the law of Moses they could not be Christians – they would be jews

          • I love you guys. You always make me laugh. :-) I agree that God is far more important than any bit of religion. I wonder what the true believer folk will do when God comes back and says ‘you got it wrong’. At least, according to them, we know we ‘got it wrong’. LOL

            No, Jesus didn’t say his God was a nasty piece of work that smited folk when they wouldn’t do what he wanted. I don’t remember him mentioning anything like that at all. And he didn’t write Revelation, where the smiting theme is taken to extremes.

            That Ehrman book was very interesting .. I know I keep saying this .. it seems that the King James Bible is actually a retranslated version of the Greek Orthodox Bible. I didn’t know that. http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/nrsv.html Here you go, a little bible fact.

            I could kiss K Smith (no, I don’t want him/her to catch my germs LOL). I LOVE researching this stuff. :-)

            Yes, I am feeling a bit better .. the chiropractor is a blessing. :-)

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • Good point, CT – and yet Christians still refer to the OT. Why have the OT in the Bible at all if the Lore of Moses no longer applies? Why pick and chose bits of it? Why learn Jewish scripture and mold it into a different religion?

            Can you see why I struggle with religious psyche – all religions, not just Christianity? They declare other religions to be wrong and yet they’re all taking bits from those beliefs which they have declared to be wrong, then take ‘ownership’ of it and declare it theirs.

            I personally think that the 10 commandments are as relevent today as they ever were. They form the basis of humanity. Regardless of a persons religious conviction, or someone like myself with no religious conviction, the 10 commandments are still a good guideline to follow – even for the athiest.

            AJ
            x

          • The OT holds much more than just the old law. The OT is full of history, anecdotal lessons and analagies, prophecies and more.

            I agree with you on the big 10 – they are good rules to follow regardless of our beliefs.

            AND I often see churches and peole picking and choosing certain parts of the law to follow and it makes no sense. If you are under one part you are under it all. You cannot just pick and choose (Unless you are creating your own religion)

          • Hi CT

            Yep! I know that …….. you know that. I’m just trying to get inside K Smiths head. A scary place, me thinks!!

            Hi Ama

            Glad we make you laugh …… its good to laugh!

            AJ
            x

          • Hi guys, I agree we (Christians) should still be under the Laws, which included the Ten Commandments. I can understand wanting to give up the kosher stuff, it is complicated, but waving a metaphorical hand over the Law and saying none of it applies anymore is .. nuts, and also dangerous. And I don’t think anyone rewrote what the new laws were.

            I guess ignoring Jesus is easy when you want to make yourself important. And Paul is not described as the nicest person in the world.

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • How could a Christian be “under” the Law of Moses? “Christian” means follower of Christ and Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law and that we were no longer under its requirements. No longer did we need priests and sacrifices but now we had a direcrt path to God and not only the Jews but the Gentiles (just roughly paraphrasing) – It was even written about that those who tried to go back under the law were making Jesus’ sacrifice for nothing.

            Now I am not saying that nothing in the Old law applies – surely murder and adultery etc are still agin the law.

          • Hi CT,

            You have to go by Jesus’ words, not Paul’s. Paul is the one that said that the laws no longer applied, Jesus only said he came to ‘fulfill’ them. Does the word ‘fulfill’ mean remove completely .. make unimportant .. make invalid .. where’s my dictionary …

            1. To bring into actuality; effect: fulfilled their promises.
            2. To carry out (an order, for example).
            3. To measure up to; satisfy. See Synonyms at perform, satisfy.
            4. To bring to an end; complete.

            http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fulfil

            Aha… now we have where Paul got it from LOL. Or did that meaning come from the Christian application of it .. which is more likely. So Jesus completed the Laws .. but then what did people do? Well, if they had followed Jesus’ commandments (you know – love one another etc) we wouldn’t need the 10 commandments, we’d automatically follow every one one of them in our hearts .. but they didn’t .. and here we are.

            I think the question is: what do we do now?

            You know, according to Athanasius, Jesus reached to everyone from the cross .. pity the Christians had to put up so many barriers between him and us.

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • You are using the wrong dictionary :) . We have to look at the original language and not a modern dictionary. Even “English” words change in definition all the time (cool, hot, fag, gay, charity… just a few examples of words that have changed in usage recently.. This is a huge source of misunderstanding with the Bible. We look at the English words and think of todays definitions of those words when they may not apply or may not even be close.

            From Strongs Concordance and Lexicon:

            pl?ro? (Was also translated into “end” and “complete”

            1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
            a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
            1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
            2) to render full, i.e. to complete
            a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
            b) to consummate: a number
            1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
            2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
            c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
            1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute
            2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
            3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God’s will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God’s promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

            .

          • Hi CT

            Interesting you brought up sacrific … you see, Holy Communion consists of the symbolic eating of Christ’s flesh and the drinking of Christ’s blood (bread and wine) so, despite no human or animal being killed as part of the ritual, the sacrficial element is still taught as part of the doctrine.

            AJ
            x

          • Accordign to the Bible it is all about the sacrifice. I was referring to sacrificing animals on the alter not to all sacrifice. The Bible is very clear about Jesus being the sacrifice to replace the sheep, goats etc

          • Hi CT

            As a kid, sitting in Church watching all these wierd rituals they’ performed, I remember thinking how marcarbe it was to think it perfectly fine to eat Christ’s flesh and drink Christ’s blood.

            Just one of a number of random thoughts I had about Christianity, when I were a nipper. Its no wonder I was turned off Christianity! Who would want to eat the flesh and blood of men?

            AJ
            x

        • Jesus is the Son of God and heir to all that God has created. Jesus stated that God loved him and has given all things into his hand including judgment of this world.

          Jesus is worthy to be praised and worshipped because from the day he was born his birth was heralded throughout the universe.

          The Wise Men saw his star in the sky and traveled a great distance and according to the bible, they fell down at his feet and worship and the baby Jesus. The wise men were not Jews or Christians but they knew that Jesus was special.

  9. AJ,

    Come now let us reason, Idolatry = Devil worship. These so called churches that have erected effigies, images or idols of Jesus or anyone as a matter of fact are NOT Christian Churches. The bible is clear, idols are an abomination to God. The Catholics believe they are a Christian Church but their doctrine, idols, images, obelisk i.e. penis of the Egyptian god Ra that sits in St. Peter’s Square and other visible abominations proves they are NOT.

    Leviticus 19:4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.

    Deuteronomy 29:17 And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them

    Exodus 20:1-5 And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

    The reason why Idolatry is so evil is that behind every idol, a devil or demon is being worshipped. The Egyptians worshipped the god, SET which is equivalent to Satan. So whenever you see an idol erected, some demonic spirit is probably hovering around waiting for your veneration and admiration.

    Leviticus 17:7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

    Deuteronomy 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

    The children of Israel sacrificed their children to Molech and Baal. The bible plainly states they sacrificed their children to devils. This simply means Molech and Baal are just representations of devils or demons.

    Psalm 106:36-38 And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them. Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, 38And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

    • Hello K Smith, :-)

      The obelisk in front of St Peters .. http://saintpetersbasilica.org/Exterior/Obelisk/Obelisk.htm True, Caligula was a creepy and truly nasty person, but nothing I read, that wasn’t related to the reptilians taking over the world, according to David Icke .. said it was a penis – but whatever, we are all entitled to our odd beliefs.

      I didn’t know that sending my thoughts to Jesus, while sitting at the feet of a statute that might look the way he did, was worshipping the devil. I don’t know of any Catholics who actually send their thoughts specifically to that large piece of marble .. or whatever stone .. no, if you asked them, you would find they are addressing themselves to Jesus in their hearts and minds. And I have Catholic friends, and asked them what they were doing .. just to check. The statute is simply a representation they can focus on, just like the rosary beads in their hands focus their thoughts into prayers, and Bible focuses your thoughts on God. Are you then worshipping the Bible as God? You truly believe that it is the unerring ‘WORD’ of God, and according to John, the Word is Jesus .. so the book becomes Jesus and it also becomes an idol, because its not Jesus .. its paper and ink. Hmmm ..

      It is wrong to assume that a person in prayer, in front of anything, is “worshipping’ the thing they are in front of .. do you kneel in front of your bed at night, to talk to God – are you then worshipping your bed as God? .. or how about your computer? Where do you sit down to pray? Personally, I do it anywhere, anytime, and I know God .. Jesus’ Father … is listening to me when I ask him for advice.

      But please, take everything to extreme. I love it. You lead me in all sorts of interesting biblical adventures .. but its right away from the God you worship, because my God is the one that said ‘Love one another …’. You know, I once met a lovely old fundamental gentleman who told me that his dead wife no longer thought about him ‘because she had her eyes set firmly on Jesus’. I wondered if he found comfort in that, though he didn’t look very happy when he said it. I wouldn’t be happy to think that those people I have loved in this lifetime have forgotten about me once in heaven, and I can only wonder how the ‘love one another’ stops applying after we die. In my experience, we continue to love those who have crossed over before us, but .. does heaven stop people loving their families because their eyes are now on God? Do you think God is so selfish that IT has to be the centre of attention 24/7, that God wants us to abandon our families to follow Him .. oh, hang on, isn’t that in the Bible? You see where my thoughts wander too, K Smith – just how nasty and selfish is God? And yet the bible also teaches .. honour thy mother and father, and look after your family .. hasn’t it just contradicted itself? LOL

      My answer, before you jump in shouting and pointing out bible verses that says we go to sleep after we die, is that we continue to love our families once we cross over, and come and visit them, when its suitable. That’s happened for me, and lots of other people that I know, around the world – millions, in fact.

      Do keep writing. I am enjoying your thoughts, for the twisted logic of the fundamentalist mind that they appear to represent. And I am learning so much about the bible .. not from your quotes, which I totally ignore, but from your interpretation of what you read. And I am still curious to know what sector of the Christian religion has your heart .. which church do you go to? God is in all the houses, just sometimes the people seem to have their hands over their ears.

      Love & Peace
      Ama

      • The obelisk predates the Grecian and Roman empire. It’s origins are squarely rooted in Egypt. The Egyptians believed that the spirit of the Sun god, Amon Ra dwelt within each obelisk.

        The Obelisk that sits in St. Peter’s Square in Rome is the tallest Egyptian obelisk that was ever carved. The Catholic Church transported that Obelisk from Egypt and erected it in a place honor. God told the Israelites NOT to defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. But notice how the Obelisk sits precisely in the center of the Eight Fold Path of Enlightenment, another pagan symbol. http://www.stpetersbasilica.org/Exterior/Square/Square.htm

        The Eiffel Tower, Washington Monument in Washington DC and Big Ben, the famous clock at the Houses of Parliament in Westminster are all Obelisks i.e. phallic symbols.

        New Age author Peter Thomkins wrote about obelisks in his book, “The Magic of the Obelisks” and they can be traced back to the world of witchcraft, voodoo, demonology and sorcery.

        Dr. Cathy Burns, the author of “Masonic and Occult Symbols Illustrated” also wrote extensively about the dark pagan origins of the Obelisk.

        GOD
        My Lord and my God is not an “IT”. God created the universe, the solar system, and galaxies, and he is NOT human. The bible states that God is a spirit, if God were human, then he could not have created the universe. We three dimensional humans can only exist in one dimension of time. However, God exists in all dimensions.

        The bible states that earth cannot contain God because of his great and immense size. The universe is an example of how powerful, magnificent, spectacular and immense God really is.

        God’s right hand ALONE can span the entire heavens. This means that earth can sit squarely and neatly into the hand of my God. This is the God that I serve, all other gods on earth fails in comparison to the Ancient of Days.

        Now why would God want anyone to abandon their family? Did not God create all life such the Family Unit which encompasses mothers, fathers, children and grandparents etc. The bible states for God so love the world…..

        God has always been fair and just. Adam and Eve lived in a perfect world without sin, and God gave them only ONE COMMANDMENT which they broke. Remember, it was all PERFECT from the beginning. It was man who messed up. Do NOT blame God for mankind’s rebellion and problems. Everything God made was good.

        DEATH
        I can only state what the bible says about death. We are NOT conscious. The Dead is sleeping awaiting the resurrection.

        BIBLE QUOTES

        Its most unfortunate you ignore the bible quotes. The bible states that the WORD OF GOD is like a two edge sword it’s that powerful that is why I cannot live with the Word of God.

        • Ok, KS, this time you stopped me in my tracks ..

          You said: God has always been fair and just.

          Ok, explain Job to me .. his whole experience with God and the devil. Where was the ‘fair and just’ in that. Job was a true believer in God, and God gave the devil permission to torment him, kill all his famly and take away his whole life .. and why???? To test his faith – or was he only trying to prove something to the devil .. nice or not.

          And then there’s the little things like Saul being tormented by an evil angel for NOT killing an entire tribe of people God was mad at. He spared the King .. who was later killed one of Saul’s followers, I think. Where is ‘fair and just’ in that?

          I can site any number of other cases that put a huge question mark against the ‘fair and just’ ness of the OT God.

          In that case, you might know this phrase .. “There are none so blind as those who will not see”. (sigh)

          Love & Peace
          Ama

          • There was nothing fair and just about what was supposed to have happened to Job

        • Ok, having read through the rest of this comment, I can see now why you won’t name your church .. you don’t go to one. You know they wouldn’t accept you delving into the new age stuff, and the ufology stuff .. so I am right, you are creating your own belief system, and truthfully, I have no problem with the creating, but the creation .. ah well .. just be careful who you start to judge others, KS .. because your feet are already touching hell’s pit .. according to fundamentalist beliefs.

          Why do I say this – you read new age words and follow new age teachers with your beliefs .. so pontificating on the biblical stuff seems hypocritical to me. But whatever, I do the same .. I just don’t pretend the Bible is the unerring Word of God.

          Your God and mine created men and women .. if it wasn’t both a male and female, how could we have been ‘created in its image’? So yes, its either a s/he or its an it. You want to see it as a man, go for it, I have no problem with that, and I also have no problem with the people who worship the Goddess as God. Goddess worship actually existed ‘before’ men decided that everyone had to worship a male deity. Humans have been venerating the Mother as the Creator being long before the Father became one. After all, its women who give birth .. not men.

          How do humans exist in only one dimension at a time .. this plane we live on is a three dimensional place .. length, breadth and width. Is time the ’4th’ dimension? I just hit a mental blank? We keep ourselves from experiencing true ‘time’ because we want to live a linear existence .. from a beginning to an end, but when we are in spirit Time does not exist as we think it does on this plane.

          Are you quoting 2 Chronicles 6:18 & 1 KIngs 8:27 about God not being able to be contained by the earth? Because I can’t find any reference to it in my bible. Those two quotes ask if God will dwell ‘on’ earth, which might be impossible, given that the ‘heavens’ can’t contain him/her? But Jesus didn’t seem to have any problems being on the planet as a man, and he was supposed to be God .. so why would God have a problem? And doesn’t God, in its omnipresent state of being, exist everywhere here already?

          Abandoning our families .. didn’t Jesus say that to follow him we had to give up all our possessions Luke 14:33 .. and what’s more, he said we cannot be his disciples unless we hate our parents, spouses, children and siblings. Luke 14:26 .. now that quote has to be a load of c**p .. in my opinion. See Matt 10:37 for clarity.

          Death .. I will advise the next dead person who comes and talks to me that they are supposed to be sleeping. Actually, that’s pretty much what I do advise a lost soul who comes to me for help .. “first let us connect you with heaven, and then you go and have a nap”. We do a lot of healing in our sleep .. particularly in the first 72 hours after we die.

          I don’t ignore the bible quotes, although I did say that in the middle of my virus muddle, but I do ignore a stream of them that all say the same thing, until I sit down to investigate the subject in hand, and then I check every one of them for the accuracy of the translation.

          Heavens, its been a long day on this particular site. I hope you read everything that I wrote to you KS .. you might learn something. I certainly did.

          Love & Peace
          Ama

  10. K Smith

    “Idolatry = Devil worship”
    Agreed – although I think devil worship is a bit strong. Misguided, I would say.

    “images or idols of Jesus or anyone as a matter of fact are NOT Christian Churches.”
    Agreed – although many of those who go there to worship would have a Christian heart and live a Christian life and conduct themselves in a Christian way – ie good people. It’s the administration of it (the leaders) who should be brought into question.

    AJ

    • Good points AJ. I agree. We have the history of the various Bishops of the Catholic, later named Christian churches, and most of them could be called villains.

      Love & Peace
      Ama

  11. Some of the responses (and I’m sure if I’m talking about you, you’ll know) are exactly the reason that organized religion often times does more harm than good…and it isn’t even the religion itself that causes it…it’s the people. Now be forewarned…this may be a bit of a rant but I just can’t keep it bottled up after reading some of the things that have been said.

    There are reasons that I’m no longer a Catholic. From my experience I see it as more of a control over individual’s lives and a way to indoctrinate specific laws, rules and tenets, taking away free will. Don’t do THIS and don’t do that or you will spend in eternity in hellfire and damnation. If this religion you speak of is so wonderful, why in the world do you have to practice fear mongering in order to get people to listen? It’s nonsensical.

    I will speak for myself and a few others I know and say that some of us do NOT reject organized religion for ourselves out of a hatred for the previous religions we were part of.
    We reject it because it is not for us. We reject is because to us, it doesn’t make sense. Our lives have shown us a different way, one that we know deep down, is right for us. We have no way of knowing what is right or wrong for another person and shoving our individual faith down another person’s throat is NOT the answer. If you believe in your religion so strongly, then stop the pushing and shoving. Be confident in your faith, and you won’t need others to follow you in order to feel validation. You will have that validation just in knowing what’s in your heart.

    It’s a simple concept really…or at least I thought it was. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Judge not lest ye be judged. Aren’t both of these things that are fundamentally important to the Christian religion? In a nutshell, practice what you preach. Don’t expect me to believe something “just because”. I would never expect an intelligent human being to do that….and it’s insulting to me and the others here that you won’t even listen to what we have to say.
    *rant over*

    • CT said: You are using the wrong dictionary

      And he was right. :-) In this case I stand (or sit) corrected .. but the meaning is the same .. or is it? I am getting a niggle in my mind, and wondering which OT prophet the saying actually came from? I must look it up, but not before breakfast.

      So, thank you CT.

      Love & Peace
      Ama

      • I always tell folks to look up the original. For example the KJV was trranslated hundreds of years ago and the English language and usage has changed very much since that time. Looking up the original words very often clears up seeming contradictions and discrepancies when you are studying the Bible

        • It would be nice to be able to look up the originals of all the books of the bible, but we don’t actually have ANY of them. I tell folks to go and look up the Hebrew and Greek .. which is why I use the Interlinear Bible. You are right. We who are curious are all seeking clarity .. a clear vision/understanding of the Bible, but I think the only way we’ll ever get it is to make a time machine and go back in time. I’d do that. Never wanted to leave the planet myself. Too much fun to be had right here. LOL

          Love & Peace
          Ama

    • Dear Diana,

      I always love your rants. I would be delighted for you to continue anytime you consider it necessary.

      BTW, my previous comment (above this message) landed itself in the wrong spot, so I took a leaf out of your book somehow. LOL

      Love & Peace
      Ama

      • Sometimes I get up their on my soap box and I literally have to be yanked off :) I have tons of tolerance and respect for my fellow man but, I can be a pretty passionate person when I see basic decency being left by the wayside….especially when it’s so obviously illogical horse puckey (I borrowed that phrase from my Grandpa. It seemed particularly fitting in this situation).

        I don’t understand what’s so difficult about respecting others even when they don’t agree with whatever is being said. A disagreement in this case is hardly a personal attack. Everyone’s faith is going to vary slightly. What’s so wrong with that? If we all believed exactly the same things, the world would be a terribly mundane place.

        No worries about responding to the wrong thing Ama :) It happens. Sometimes we get so excited to reply to a question that our fingers get ahead of us. Happens to me ALL the time.

        • I must admit, I love a good debate, Diana, and you’ve seen how big my soapbox can be. LOL Your grandpa sounds great. LOL

          The ‘wrong spot’ thing was odd. I had half answered the question, and copied it into a separate places, because they vanish sometimes, when the whole page reloaded itself and I just copied it back without checking .. ?? Ah well, no problem.

          Love & Peace
          Ama

          • Haha. I actually did that on another question a few days ago. Thought I’d lost everything I’d written, came back and it had posted twice. One under “anonymous” and one under “diana”. Hmm….perhaps the internet is trying to settle a score with us, Ama :)

          • I thought it was my computer, Diana .. but it could be the site having a hiccup? :-) After the amount of posts we put on on it the last few days .. and all that well thought out energy, light or angry, sent towards it by the many people who read and/or comment here .. I’d have hiccups too. ROFL

            I asked for a funny answer for you :-) and I got one. LOL

            And isnt’ there something Wicca spellish about ‘twice bound’ .. maybe the Rede needed to be there twice, to help balance the energy?

            Love & Peace
            Ama

          • I never thought of that. Perhaps it can be attributed to some sort of synchronicity?
            The universe speaks to us in some of the strangest ways :)

  12. I feel there is a true religion. It originated with the nation of Israel. Once the where no longer God chosen people, Jesus then set the example while he was on earth. After his death the apostles continued the congregational arrangement. Unfortunately after the apostle all die, true worshiper strayed away from the teachings that were laid before them by Christ, Jesus. Where is it now? What is the right religion? I can’t say because there are so many out there. How do I know then? Matthew 24:45-47 explain there will be servants waiting the Lord’s Day. Worshipper or followers. Also a master to “look over his possessions”, a congregation or congregations. So whatever somebody is preaching out there is right.

  13. All this “which one is right” has led me to simply say, “Which one do you think makes more, or any, sense to YOU.” There ya go :) lol

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